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Ae86 Or S13


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#1 stable20

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 12:30 PM

been doing some research on the s13 suspension on ke70's and ae86 suspeion on ke70's.

people say that yeah s13 conversion was great and same with ae86,

but some say that ae86 is better than s13 front suspension.

whats the verdict?

Edited by stable20, 15 March 2011 - 12:30 PM.

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#2 Grand Master of Awesome

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 12:36 PM

so many threads on this but anyway

depends what parts you're using in each set up, ae86 struts with cutties and f@$ked shocks will be crap anyday of the week

but bc coilovers with ae86 power steering arms, corona (or similar) lca's, some 40-50mm rca's is going to be a good set up. Only real let down are the brakes but there is brake upgrades available.

s13 set up's really need to be fine tuned, wait for ke70dave to post about them as he's done about half a million variations of the set up. r31 control arms are meant to be the way to go since they don't give you massive amounts of track.

But what are you looking to use the car for? and what price range do you have.

Which makes me question, is there an RCA option for an s13 set up? or does using base height adjustable coilovers negate the need for them? always wondered what the people that drift s13/s14/s15 are doing in that department.
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View Postspongebob101, on Feb 12 2010, 01:10 AM, said:

just thought id add, on the way home 2nite i got to the last round about near my house i got it full on sideways an I'm not braggin but it was awsum, and just as i went down the street my parents were there watching all of it lol an they were yellin at me to slow down but i no deep inside they just wish they drove a corolla like mine, hahahahaha lol love it
keep rollin

#3 stable20

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 12:38 PM

View Postdestroyer, on 15 March 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

so many threads on this but anyway

depends what parts you're using in each set up, ae86 struts with cutties and f@$ked shocks will be crap anyday of the week

but bc coilovers with ae86 power steering arms, corona (or similar) lca's, some 40-50mm rca's is going to be a good set up. Only real let down are the brakes but there is brake upgrades available.

s13 set up's really need to be fine tuned, wait for ke70dave to post about them as he's done about half a million variations of the set up. r31 control arms are meant to be the way to go since they don't give you massive amounts of track.

But what are you looking to use the car for? and what price range do you have.

Which makes me question, is there an RCA option for an s13 set up? or does using base height adjustable coilovers negate the need for them? always wondered what the people that drift s13/s14/s15 are doing in that department.


well I'm just researching for now, I'm using the car aas a daily but later on going to take it to a few track drift events.

I'm quiet mechanicly minded so all the suspesion can be done my self.
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#4 ke70dave

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 12:47 PM

edit: so i took to long to post....destroyer has covered a few of my points.

ive had them both, and ae86 is far better.

i am a convert as i thought the s13 stuff was great at first, but as i explain i realised it wasnt so great.

ive had my ke70 for arond 4yrs now, put s13 gear straight in when i got it, it was cheap, brakes are awesome, but it never did quite feel right.

i tried 3 different pairs of coilovers to try and get decent damping and suspension droop. the last set of coilovers i had were the best of the lot, 8kg with kyb AGX inserts inside of bridgestone coilovers. it just never felt quite right, the steering feel is not linea from lock-lock, it tends to get "harder" to steer close to full lock.

before anyone sais "s13 gives to much track" this is EASILY fixed by BOLT IN R31 LCA's, brings the track back to about 10mm over stock (Same as the much loved xt130 arms). i have personally done it on my mates ae86, works great at bringing the wheels back into check.

so onto the ae86 gear:

at my whits end of the setup not feeling right, i bit the bullet and went for a complete ae86 JDM yo setup, jap 234x18mm brakes, with cheap sw20 rear kyb excel G shocks with 6gk springs, 40mm RCA's, weld on coilover kit, 6kg springs, brand new discs, calipers (reco'd), brake pads, tie rod ends, rack ends.

the entire front of my car was brand new stuff. and it is fantastic. i can feel the shocks arent the greatest (you can't expect much from under $100 each), but it is very good. feels like driving a "normal" car, the steering is normal, it gives great feedback. and it takes the bumps very nicely. while gripping like crazy to the road.

and it is sooooo much better than the s13 gear. just feels "normal" and gives you more confidence in the car (i find anyway).

the only downside of the ae86 gear is that the stock jdm brakes (vented 234mmx18) are certianly not as good as the nissan stuff (ca s13 brakes are 250x20?, and every nissan brake pretty much bolts on...) but i reckon you can get pretty close with some good pads and some good fluid (have a chat to GSL rally sport). these ke70/ae86's are pretty light so you don't neeed much to make them stop (I'm just a sucker for huge brakes!!)

i have hit up the mountain roads and had the brakes fade once or twice, but in general the 234x18mm's do a very good job. i reckon if you were to hit the track and intending to lean on the brakes ALOT (ie proper circuit racing, not really drift...) then you would definately need better brakes, go some wilwoods or the RX7 option. but for a street car the 234x18's are more than enough.

Edited by ke70dave, 15 March 2011 - 12:55 PM.

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#5 ke70dave

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 12:52 PM

View Postdestroyer, on 15 March 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:


s13 set up's really need to be fine tuned, wait for ke70dave to post about them as he's done about half a million variations of the set up. r31 control arms are meant to be the way to go since they don't give you massive amounts of track.


Which makes me question, is there an RCA option for an s13 set up? or does using base height adjustable coilovers negate the need for them? always wondered what the people that drift s13/s14/s15 are doing in that department.


hehehe you know me too well.

as for s13 RCA's...yes there is!

they attach to the ball joint of the steering arm thing....allow you to lower the tie rod end down to correct the changes in geometry.

there are a few different variations around from what i can tell. here is a quick one i found on the google machine.

http://www.nengun.co...centre-adjuster

I'm not entirely sure on when the are required (it how low you need to go before yo need them...), i just bought a set of coilvoers for the s15, trying to work out if i need one of those RCA's or not:S

in order to set that up it would be a slow proces, would need a bump steer guage and alot of time..doable at home though thats for sure.

Edited by ke70dave, 15 March 2011 - 12:53 PM.

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#6 parrot

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 01:11 PM

I have never understood why people go s13 suspension. If it is a permanent competition car then fine. Then you can do the fabrication required to set your geometry up properly. If it is a road car, occasional comp car, just stay AE86. If you are really keen, there are masses of aftermarket stuff available to substantially modify the AE86 stuff whilst maintaining the basic design.

There is nothing stopping you putting Nissan brakes on the front if you are determined to put huge (and I would argue unneccesary) brakes on the car if you really want to.
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#7 stable20

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 02:23 PM

hey thanks alot for your input guys, what do you mean geomitry of the car?

Edited by stable20, 15 March 2011 - 02:48 PM.

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#8 Grand Master of Awesome

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 02:28 PM

i thought there may have been something available, but you never hear of anyone actually using them. I have friends in nissans and they never have/even think of using anything like that (even though the cars are 50mm from ground). Where as all my friends with 80's toyotas wouldnt lower anything without some rca's. Might have to question them on it.

reasons people go s13 front end.
1. CHEAP
2. big brakes
3. huge range of afordable coilovers and spring rates/damper adjustable
4. CHEAP
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View Postspongebob101, on Feb 12 2010, 01:10 AM, said:

just thought id add, on the way home 2nite i got to the last round about near my house i got it full on sideways an I'm not braggin but it was awsum, and just as i went down the street my parents were there watching all of it lol an they were yellin at me to slow down but i no deep inside they just wish they drove a corolla like mine, hahahahaha lol love it
keep rollin

#9 ke70dave

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 02:59 PM

with s13 gear its cheap to get a cheap setup. But its not cheap to get a good setup.

geometry: you need to read up on suspension geometry , its a huge topic, very interesting though.

Edited by ke70dave, 15 March 2011 - 03:17 PM.

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#10 stable20

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 03:02 PM

View Postke70dave, on 15 March 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

with s13 gear its cheap to get a cheap setup. But its not cheap to get a good setup.

dave what does geomitry of the car mean.

thanks
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#11 Grand Master of Awesome

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 03:05 PM

compared to ae86 stuff s13 gear is cheap
i got front and rear coilovers for my 180 and it cost me a total of $450. Still were decent condition too.
Front's were even damper adjustable.
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View Postspongebob101, on Feb 12 2010, 01:10 AM, said:

just thought id add, on the way home 2nite i got to the last round about near my house i got it full on sideways an I'm not braggin but it was awsum, and just as i went down the street my parents were there watching all of it lol an they were yellin at me to slow down but i no deep inside they just wish they drove a corolla like mine, hahahahaha lol love it
keep rollin

#12 ke70dave

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 03:37 PM

View Poststable20, on 15 March 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

dave what does geomitry of the car mean.

thanks

in the simplist terms, suspension is there to allow the wheels to move up and down to help the body not move up and down (provide comfort), it is also there to ensure that the tyre maintains contact with the road at all times (provide grip).

in order to achieve this, the wheels are connected to the body by suspension arms, springs and shocks. the connections are connected by pivot points, the inherinet problems with pivots is that everything moves in circular motions.

good suspension geometry takes into account these circular motions, and ensures that the wheel (and thus car) moves in a way that is predictable and keeps the tyre in the optimum position throughout the suspension travel.

A massive amount of effort goes into this from a design point of view, much scratching of heads whilst staring at cad models, wondering how they are going to keep the tyre in the right place throughout the suspension travel. quite a difficult task.....

then "Car enthusiasts" come along, throw in lowered springs and huge wheels, and stuff up all the good work that the suspension designers have done. the suspension starts to be used outside its design specifications...and the car handles like poo.

in regards to s13 gear in ke/ae. the suspension and steering points on the s13 gear has been designed for an s13....not an ae86. so although it "works" it doesnt work that great. i have no technical data to back this up, other than ive driven on it for a few years. ae86 gear is identicle to ke70 stuff (or pretty close too) so the suspension points are the same...and thus works alot better.

in realty, when you lower an ae86 (or any car really), you are stuffing with the suspension geometry. luckily you can mask the effects of this with RCA's and other gadgets.

if you really want to learn about this stuff, download a program called "optimum k", you can experiment with suspension geometry pickup points, and check camber change etc throughout your suspension travel.

Its very nerdy, so make sure your girlfriend doesnt see you using it.

http://www.optimumg....utOptimumK.html
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#13 parrot

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 03:43 PM

View Poststable20, on 15 March 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

dave what does geomitry of the car mean.

thanks

This is exactly my point. Unless it is done (really) well, you will end up with a setup far worse than a thoughtfully modified AE86 front end.

You shouldn't be changing to S13 to buy cheap coilovers, that's just ridiculous. There are plently of damper spring brake options for an AE86.

Having said that, the number of people who lower their macpherson strut cars till they are scraping on the ground, and wonder why they veer sideways everytime they run over an ant, never ceases to amaze me.

Especially when they then complain about being defected.

Do some reading of your own, learn what it is all about, think about your requirements, then spend your money once.
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#14 stable20

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 03:53 PM

thanks alot dave, you like a Wikipedia haha :P
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#15 stable20

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 03:58 PM

if you really want to learn about this stuff, download a program called "optimum k", you can experiment with suspension geometry pickup points, and check camber change etc throughout your suspension travel.

Its very nerdy, so make sure your girlfriend doesnt see you using it.

http://www.optimumg.com/OptimumGWebSite/Software/AboutOptimumK.html
[/quote]

great now ill be side tracked playing around with this proggy and not doing my tafe work.

thanks alot.:)
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