Ke70 Suspension, Brakes, Braces, Seats, Everything Questions

[ATOYOTA]

You do realise the law allows for a 2 inch increase in rim size from the largest factory rim offered ?

This means 15 inch maximum diameter on a ke70 , and an overall increase of 10 mm in rolling diameter . Stay away from crossdrilled rotors unless they are brembo alcon or the like as the have a tendency to crack through the holes and can literally " explode".

Ae86 calipers standard are all one spot not twin spot.

Fc upgrade is larger caliper thus doesnt fit behind a lot of 15 inch wheels .same goes for willwoods.littleredspirit's car has willwoods and he runs the southernways because they were the only wheels i had at the time that cleared his calipers .

 

I thought it didn't matter the wheel size, so long as the rolling diameter is right. Laws can be so hard to find info on. I'm not majorly concerned if this is the case because I'm not sure how the 16's will even look. They're rarer than a virgin in Woodridge named shirlie, so I'd just end up selling them on to someone with a honda or something and get some dishy 15's with the pretense money. I don't think it'll be an issue though. Same goes for the track increase/decrease.

 

If I can find Brembo's, I'll use 'em.

 

Where on earth did I read that AE86's had two... Meh, they're bigger than the KE70 ones so might just keep them and get upgraded rotors. I dummy fitted one of the donor strut assemblies to my spare wheel the other day and they fitted inside the 13's so I think I'll keep that caliper for now.

 

Do you know if I'll need bigger calipers for the vented discs?

[It's_AUDM_Yo]

JDM AE86s had vented as standard you'd probably be better of getting them.

Otherwise you could ask RDA as they make aftermarket vented rotors for most cars and see if they made any for AUS spec AE86.

 

Edit: Spoke to a mate and he said that JDM rotors will fit ADM calipers with slightly worn pads.

Edited July 19, 2012 by It's_AUDM_Yo

[ATOYOTA]

JDM AE86s had vented as standard you'd probably be better of getting them.

Otherwise you could ask RDA as they make aftermarket vented rotors for most cars and see if they made any for AUS spec AE86.

 

Edit: Spoke to a mate and he said that JDM rotors will fit ADM calipers with slightly worn pads.

 

The ones I'm looking at are RDA's and the guy I spoke to said exactly what you did.

 

I think I'll just get slotted rotors, and not worry about vented yet. Seems a bit overkill anyway for the amount of car it's stopping.

[altezzaclub]

The coils arrived the other day, and I put the rear ones in on Friday. It handles great in the arse now, albeit a bit understeery. Feels weird and incomplete, but an upgrade's an upgrade.

 

That's interesting- So is that running stock front suspension and stiffer, lower coils in the back with stock shocks and sways??

Understeerey would be expected if the tails now got more grip and the motor is never going to power-oversteer it, but it will be educational to add each component and feel the changes.

[ATOYOTA]

Exactaticklytactly.

 

I softened the shocks in the rear and now it feels a lot more balanced. Had it set right up high to the maximum stiffness and through hard corners the front would understeer, unless I broke the traction. Then I had it down to the softest and it would kick the back out through every corner. So now I have it set to about 10/30 and it's much more natural.

 

It's set to about 5mm off the highest ride height in the arse and that's about an inch lower than stock. When I put the fronts in I'll probably drop it another inch or so.

[LittleRedSpirit]

So I'm curious about a front coilover conversion for my KE70.

 

My researches have shown a few options, but I think I'll go with the 'well duhh' and get AE86 struts. This means I'll need AE86 steering arms too (rack & pinion, FTW) I believe. Will I also need '86/XT130 LCA's? I've read up about both and I don't really want to do XT130's because they bring the track out too much, lessen lock and make the close fitment with my chosen rims just that bit too close. AE86 LCA's I'm lead to believe are the same length. I'm getting adjustable camber tops with either setup so the alleged 'mega-camber' produced from longer LCA's isn't an issue.

 

The rears seem like they will be pretty straight forward; just short stroke shocks (KYB or Bilstein, which is more worth it?) and shorter, stiffer springs. I'm not gonna go coilovers in the rear as it would mean the wheels would definitely scrub on the spring/seat.

 

Also, what spring rates are recommended? 8KG front/6KG rear is the talk around town.

 

Has anyone ever fitted AJPS coilovers? Being what it is, it'll probably be pretty good, but for the same price of the front I can get BC Racing BR-series front & rear. I've heard the BC's are top stuff, but what would YOU recommended?

 

Here are the links for both:

 

AJPS (Type 2) - http://ajps.com.au/p...s_coilovers.php

 

BC - http://www.ebay.com....=item2ebf1b8131

 

 

I also have plans of doing a brake upgrade that I need help with.

 

Again, I've done a bit of researching and it's brought the following... It'll be either AE86 or RX7 depending on what's available. I'll need a bigger master cylinder, and somewhere I read that an 80 series Land Cruiser one might bolt straight in. Braided lines sound sexy, and they're stronger than rubber or something. What else am I missing? Will the stock brake booster need to go too? The brakes themselves will most likely just be standard '86 ones, so they'll fit on the coilovers.

 

Stiffer sway bars are in order too, while I'm at it. I think I saw some as big as 24mm somewhere once. My aim is very snappy and responsive, but is this too much? 18mm/19mm sway bars are easier to find anyway. AE86 compatible ones bolt straight in, do they not?

 

Just for shits and giggles, strut tower braces (front & rear) will be added to the shopping list. What other braces can be fitted that help stiffen up the chassis a bit? I don't think I'm ready for a half cage yet, as it still needs to be (reasonably) comfortable for passengers I occasionally ferry around in the back.

 

Bucket seats and a grippier, smaller diameter steering wheel are a must. I was thinking of something along the lines of Bride Gias seats but the 'jesus christ!' price tag for a genuine set is just out of my budget. I want something that's stiff on the thighs with plenty of lumbar support, and it must recline. I know I'll need different rails, too. I read that AE86 rails almost bolt straight in except for one hole that can either be reemed out or have the rail stretch to fit. Neither of these are things I'm too keen on doing as they sound unsafe and silly. Can '86 rails be modded relatively simply to fit properly and pass engineer's cert.?

 

How can I go about harnesses? I'm thinking 3 point so it won't take three lifetimes to get in/out of, but also keeping the standard seat belts as secondary. Do they have to be fixed to a cage or can they somehow be fitted to the seat itself, or the floor? As mentioned I want it to still be a 4/5 seater, so having a cage and a harness attached to it preeeetty much voids that idea. Surely there's got to be some seats around that have bolt holes for a harness?

 

I've sussed out the steering wheel, sort of. I like the 330mm Nardi deep corn leather steering wheel but the brand of boss kit I'm unsure of. What's a good strong one that doesn't look like an elephant's foreskin? Quick release is a preference to deter thieves.

 

For now, I just want a medium performance increase as I haven't even started thinking about the down-the-track engine conversion I wanna do. Basically I want to get the running gear/suspension all sussed first and foremost before any serious engine performance is considered so my car can actually handle a substantial increase in power. It's my daily drive, and I'd like to keep it that way so everything has to be street legal and I don't want to cut any corners. I have access to minor fabrication work (my dad), but I want to keep that to a minimum. I'm pretty much looking for straight bolt-in upgrades, maybe with the odd 'persuasion' here and there. This is going to be quite a lengthy project, as funds/time/availability of parts will weigh me down a lot.

 

Leave your insights; I'm eager to hear them. Also if there's anything I've left out that you think are necessary, feel free to add them in. Ballpark figures would be appreciated just to give me a vaguely rough idea of what to expect to pay, but if you don't know it doesn't matter.

 

 

 

 

Thanks in advance, and sorry for the big arse post. It's only sure to get bigger as I add to the list...

 

Just a few holes in your plan that I can see, or perhaps a few misconceptions from your research.

 

I think to have a trackable amount of camber you need xt130 LCAs. Even with Cambertops. Cambertops allow camber adjustment and increase to a certain extent, but they still have limits. If you wanted over 3 degrees you would need the xt130 arms aswell. The strut towers are only so big. Lock isnt an issue, and anyhow if you want more lock fit power steer arms from an ae86. Or you can use an AJPS lock spacer. Or you can go all out and have extra teeth put into the steering rack to allow more movement.

 

Rear coil overs are completely unnecessary until you have a roll cage that gives bracing to the floor where they bolt up. The springs meet the floor where they do for a reason. The shock bolt mount wont be up to it without reinforcing. Until you fix a lot of other geometry things with the rear end I wouldn't get too fussed. This is why AJPS is selling fronts alone most likely. BCs are fine but I prefer to have a coilover made by using a steel street strut. Personally if I were doing the work to make coil overs I would need to make them from xt130 struts as they are very similar in stub axle angles and have a larger stub axle which is more suited to big brakes and high speeds. The ae86 hubs in the front of my 20v ke70 wear bearings out quite fast. They are too small to handle the forces of the wilwood calipers and 280mm rotors fitted.

 

Spring rates are a personal preference. You want to be stiffer front to rear. In the rear I would go for the softest most supple spring you can find that holds the car at the right height if you enjoy grip. Front rate no more than 6kg is my preference. You can go a little harder here but you will ultimately be unable to use your negative camber if you can't get some controlled body roll here. Big swaybars are a waste of time IMHO. They are oversized enough as it is. Id have a smaller one in the rear if I could find one.

 

If you like to drift then go a bit stiffer on springs all round, but no more than say 20% stiffer. You will want an oversize rear swaybar to give a more defined link with your steering input and the rear end.

 

It really helps roadholding to have high quality adjustable dampers installed. I use Koni Yellows and am very happy. Others prefer jap stuff. Its a preference thing, and different dampers have reputations for being better at different things. For glassy smooth roads and circuits you might prefer Tokico HTS or for rally maybe Bilsteins. For all round street and grip, maybe Konis. That said, a damper is a damper and they all just have their own character. I think the 4 way AGX dampers are kinda pointless, 4 steps of adjustment isnt enough. I prefer the Konis cause their are no clickers, you can get a really fine adjustment of them.

 

 

There are a lot of after market suspension bits you really don't need. Don't get caught up buying a million bits that you don't need. Just tune things and make changes one at a time so you can learn what the effect of each mod was.

 

If you use ae86 struts then i think the Wilwood kit is the best value and performance. It also lets you have more wheel choices than FC or FD brakes.

 

If you USE xt130 then you can do a few different upgrades, but the easiest is the RT132 twin spot as it came factory on the strut.

[B.L.Z.BUB]

I prefer the Konis cause their are no clickers, you can get a really fine adjustment of them.

 

 

 

How many turns did you wind them from the softest setting. I tried to find some info for when I put my reds in but all I could find was the Koni site saying 1 full turn at most. Mine will be street/grip like yours.

 

EDIT: Sorry for the hijack Riley :D easier than clogging up the site with another thread.

Edited July 21, 2012 by B.L.Z.BUB

[ATOYOTA]

I haven't got rear coilovers, just stiffer springs/shocks. I think it's kinda silly to convert the rear to coilovers because as you pointed out the rear strut towers weren't designed for that kind of force concentrated all in one spot.

 

My personal preference for ride comfort is as harsh as possible. Comfort is really a non-existant thing when I'm considering making it handle better. I don't want excessive camber because at the level of stiffness I'd be using, shit loads of camber would make it handle like crap and wear out tyres all unevenly.

 

Sorry for the hijack Riley :D easier than clogging up the site with another thread.

 

That's ok, Reedy. I started yet another suspension thread so everyone can get their questions answered, not just me.

 

 

 

 

OOH! Completely irrelephant but I had to tell someone... I FOUND THE REST OF MY REAR WINDOW TRIM TODAY :D:D:D. There's an XX KE70 at Salisbury Wreckers with air-con and all the bells/whistles and I pinched it from that.

 

What's this I hear about people mounting superchargers onto air conditioning brackets?

[LittleRedSpirit]

How many turns did you wind them from the softest setting. I tried to find some info for when I put my reds in but all I could find was the Koni site saying 1 full turn at most. Mine will be street/grip like yours.

 

Just experiment, that's the fun part. :lovin: ;)

[B.L.Z.BUB]

Yeah, I figured that was the route I'd have to take. I suppose thats the beauty of those other adjustables is they are adjustable installed, no need to drop the bottom off the mount.

[ATOYOTA]

Yeah, I figured that was the route I'd have to take. I suppose thats the beauty of those other adjustables is they are adjustable installed, no need to drop the bottom off the mount.

 

Mine have nifty little turn knobs on the tops of each shock so it's just a simple case of popping the boot/bonnet and fondling with the car's tits.

 

Set it to a setting, drive up the road and give it a swerve, pull over, adjust, repeat process. That's what I do anyway.

[LittleRedSpirit]

I haven't got rear coilovers, just stiffer springs/shocks. I think it's kinda silly to convert the rear to coilovers because as you pointed out the rear strut towers weren't designed for that kind of force concentrated all in one spot.

 

My personal preference for ride comfort is as harsh as possible. Comfort is really a non-existant thing when I'm considering making it handle better. I don't want excessive camber because at the level of stiffness I'd be using, shit loads of camber would make it handle like crap and wear out tyres all unevenly.

 

What I hear you saying is that you'd prefer your car to handle poorly. The main reason you give it any camber at all is so that when you turn it hard you will flatten the tyre out on the road and flex it down to get the ideal contact patch. If you don't allow this to happen you are severely limiting the ability of it if you ask me. Hard does not equal fast. Not at all. Quite the opposite actually. The reason you lower a car is not to get harder suspension, its to lower the centre of gravity. If you can build lowered suspension that keeps and builds on the tactile feel of the standard car then you've done it correctly. If it corners great till it hits a bump, or pops a wheel while hard cornering it needs to be fixed. If you want it to grip and go forwards it needs to be able to squat on the rear axle a bit. When you hit bumps while cornering, you need to have the droop and travel remaining to absorb the impacts without upsetting the car unduly. If you go to the extent of coil overs and a bunch of after market suspension components and it handles like the kid down the roads car with cut falcon springs and sierra chocks then you've wasted a lot of time and money. Realistically if you install larger front brakes then you want the car to lean on them and plant the front tyres with more weight to increase their efficiency.

[LittleRedSpirit]

The fastest cars around the Nurburgring are the larger road going supercars with streetable suspension. They can munch all the ripple strips. The f1 cars cannot. You need to build suspension for the condition that it will be used in.

Edited July 21, 2012 by LittleRedSpirit

[ATOYOTA]

The fastest cars around the Nurburgring are the larger road going supercars with streetable suspension. They can munch all the ripple strips. The f1 cars cannot. You need to build suspension for the condition that it will be used in.

 

I see this entire thing as one big learning experience. I may seem like a clueless kid now (and I think I am) but when this all eventually gets done and I find the right tuning through a series of trial & error, it'll be for the better.

 

For instance, I've just spent $250 on an incomplete front strut assembly of an AE86, and I might only end up using the steering arms from the whole package. When I bought them I had plans of drilling and getting the rotors machined, taking it to a guy for the brake lines, and tracking down another LCA to pair up with the single one I got with it. I've since found out that machining them costs ~$150 and buying an entirely new set of slotted front rotors is about $170, and the brake lines probably won't need to be altered as they look like they'll fit (another thing I'll find out through trying shit out).

 

I wouldn't have found that out, even with advice from the forum, if I hadn't physically aquired one and played around with it over the course of a few weeks. I'm not particularly concerned with the money I spent on it because the remainding struts can always be sold on but you can see what I mean.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Senseless Sensation

[LittleRedSpirit]

Rotor machining cost about $30 a side at the most, and there are some people who can travel around and do it mobile also. You must have asked someone to do it who doesnt have the machinery in house as for $150 then you have to assume they are taking it somewhere and paying to have it done and mark it up. It should usually be about $20 a rotor if you take them to the place to be done.

 

I guess youre learning about buying and selling parts too. There are a few gripes I have with this as well. People when selling seem to try and standardise prices as if they are new parts, when secondhand bits should be priced purely on condition. For example, struts are worthless if the stub axles are worn or corroded, as there can never be any bearings that will work or last properly fitted to them. Most people buy them sight unseen over the net and hope for the best. In my experience the kids that sell bits to you on car forums almost always lie to you, or they lie by omission. EG "you didn't tell em they were bent" answer "you didn't ask". That type of shit. People will knowingly sell you shit you don't need if they want to sell it. Even good mates will try it on if they think you have more cash than them and they want it. I had someone bring something round, tell me that he thought it would fit my car (even though it was completely unnecessary) and insist for over an hour that I pay him for it. Needless to say this person isn't a friend any more.

 

You can beat this racket by only dealing with certain people who are honest, looking at things before you buy them, and negotiating down the price of poor quality parts. If they would prefer to sell it for a million bucks aven if its rooted, then just put it down as youve learned something about them and move on.

 

If I were you Id sell the ae86 gear and try to recoup what you paid for them, then Id buy xt130 gear for $50 from a wrecker, and spend the extra $200 towards the otomoto coilover kit to complete the work. Then its about $200 more and you have coilovers. You can use the xt brakes initially as even the single pot ones are a big upgrade from ae86, bigger diameter and pad area.