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Another Electronic Ignition Question


rebuilder86

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I'm struggling to find information on this subject, everything is so complicated. It should be simple.

Simple question, are my 2 ignition components perfectly compatible?

Am I getting the best spark with a coil such as this?

I believe what I have is a 5k internal igniter dizzy and a bosch blue coil. The primary resistance of the coil is 3.9 ohms and the secondary to primary is 8000 ohms. i suspect that high resistance primary indicates this thing is internally ballast resisted?????? is this correct, if so ....

It is my understanding that an electronic ignition lie this doesn't need a ballast resistor, so I removed it from the system when I got this coil,and did some research. Now i think this one is resisted inside.

When i bought the coil, i simply walked up to the counter and said, A COIL FOR A 4k PLEASE.

they were so quick to get me a coil I think they just gave me a 'COIL'.

 

The people (staff at shops) here in this country wouldn't know the difference between electronic ignition and points ignition, let alone the requirements of the associated components.

 

Now, I'm not changing anything on the dizzy, thats impossible, but is this ~4ohms resistance too much for this dizzy??

 

If someone could clarify without making me do ten hours of research to understand their post that would be great.

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Edited by rebuilder86
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Hi Jeremy,

4K engines came with points distributors & reluctor distributors, depending on the country of origin. The reluctor distributors came with & without internal ignitors, according to the yellow Toyota bible.

 

All came with ballast resistors, which were external to the coil. A 9 volt coil with an "internal ballast" resistor, that is shorted out on startup, is easily recognised as it has three (3) terminals.

 

Ballast Resistor: 1.1 - 1.3 ohm with ignitor.

 

Ballast Resistor 1.3 - 1.5 ohms without ignitor (points distributor)

 

Coil Resistance - Primary: 1.3 - 1.7 ohms with ignitor.

 

Coil Resistance - Primary 1.2 - 1.5 ohms without ignitor (points distributor)

 

Coil Resistance - Secondary 10 - 15K ohms with ignitor.

 

Coil Resistance - Secondary 8 - 12K ohms without ignitor (points distributor)

 

Hope that helps.

 

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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so mine only has 2 terminals, but it has a 4 ohm primary resistance.

According to this website,

http://www.ratwell.c...l/BlueCoil.html

the 4 ohms mean it is internally ballasted according to the writer, see screenshot if you can't find that text.

 

I was really hoping for a yes or no and someone to tell me what coil I should be using with the 5k internal ignitor.

Reading your description, it seems I have a coil with too high a resistance for this electronic ignition module.

Could this explain why I get an orange spark and not a blue/white spark?

 

When i do get a coil with 1.3-1.7 ohms resistance, should I be putting back the ballast resistor?? From all my reading, i have learnt that ballast resistors are onyl for poitns ignition, to save the points.

Why the ʞ©$ɟ would toyota put a ballast resistor on an electronic ignition motor?

Its getting me so frustrated that I can't trust any one source of information, because of all the competing information.

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Hey Banjo, you are the genius in this stuff, but I think you might be misinformed about this point:

'A coil with an internal ballast resistor is easily recognised as it has three (3) terminals.'

 

I think they simply have the ballast resistor in them and there is no way to bypass it when starting, there is no third terminal. In fact, i can find practically no coils with 3 terminals, except for those designed for marine use.

I'm going to say you gave me a bum steer. :P

 

 

I'm really struggling with comments liek this

 

""

Which coil should I use with a non-ballast ignition system?

Use any standard non-ballast coil, or we offer a performance non-ballast coil from Bosch (blue coil 0221119027). Do not use a ballast coil. Although you may gain a performance advantage using such coils, failure will be imminent!

""

Does the author mean, do not use a coil with an internal ballast, or do not use a coil designed to be run from a ballast,.

Failure of what, the coil or the points.

People are so useless at describing this subject in simple English.

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The olde ballast resistor quandary ! What is it for ? Here's my take for what it is worth. In the very early days of the automobile, starting the engine was always an effort, particularly in cold weather. When the weather is cold, the engine is stiff & the oil thick after standing overnight. The lower the temp., the lower the battery o/c terminal voltage. The colder it is, the more current the starter motor draws, which puts a bigger load on the battery, and the voltage available in the system drops, sometimes to around about say 8-9 volts. The 12 volt coil performs well at 12 volts, but with just 8-9 volts across it, it didn't provide the optimum stored energy & therefore spark, just when it was needed at start up the engine.

 

Ford, I believe, suggested using a 9 volt coil, which solved that problem, but introduced another. The 9 volt coil overheated & burnt out, when it was supplied 12-14 volts, once the car started. Solution was to put a resistance in series with the coil, that lowered the voltage to 9 volts, whilst the car was running, but was shorted out effectively, whilst starting the car.

 

The resistance in series with the coil also had another beneficial result. It lowered the current passing through the points & therefore the points life was extended, from the normal pitting & burning.

 

The ballast resistor, when used with a points system, also had the effect of regulating the current drawn. As the average current increases, at lower revs, the ballast resistor heats up, and it's resistance increases lowering the current. At higher revs, when the points have less time to put current through the coil, the ballast cools slightly, lowering it's resistance, and therefore increasing the current through the coil at higher revs. This particularly improved the performance of 6 & 8 cylinder engines at the higher revs.

 

If an ignition coilhad an inbuilt ballast resistor, but only had two terminals, it could achieve the increase in current at higher revs, but cannot be used as a starting resistor, as you cannot get to the other end of the ballast resistor, inside the coil, to short it out during starter motor operation. There are coils out there with 3 terminals that achieve both improvements.

 

Try a coil with a lower primarly resistance, and see if you get a blue spark, and the car performs better. You won't burn the ignitor out doing a test like this, for a short time. Be very careful when measuring the primary resistance of second hand coils you have available. Common multimeters, are not very good at reading resistance of a few ohms very accurately.

 

Trust this assists.

 

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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Hi Jeremy,

I wasn't giving you a bum steer about there being ignition coils out there with 3 terminals.

 

post-270-0-94538200-1455780876_thumb.jpg

 

I'll grant you they are not common, but they do exist.

 

Which coil should I use with a non-ballast ignition system?

 

Use any standard non-ballast coil, or we offer a performance non-ballast coil from Bosch (blue coil 0221119027). Do not use a ballast coil. Although you may gain a performance advantage using such coils, failure will be imminent!

""

Does the author mean, do not use a coil with an internal ballast, or do not use a coil designed to be run from a ballast,.

Failure of what, the coil or the points.

People are so useless at describing this subject in simple English.

 

I don't know what he means either. If your existing coil has 4 ohms primary resistance, that's probably why you are getting a weak orange spark. The yellow 4K toyota bible says, you should be using a coil with a primary resistance of 1.1 - 1.3 ohms, with your reluctor dizzy with ignitor.

 

The external ballast resistor should be somewhere bewteen 1.3 - 1.7 ohms.

 

The ballast resistor should be shorted out effectively, by the start contacts of the ignition barrel.

 

Let us know how you go !

 

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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There's 2 common systems as mentioned, this is in layman's terms for buying coils for this discussion so keep that in mind...

 

The car is always 12v with a 12v battery in both ballast and non ballast systems.

 

Ballast - 9v coil and a 9v ballast resistor.

This system uses a ballast circuit and an additional bypass circuit when starting the motor.

Bypass circuit (Starting the motor) 12v Battery is under high load under cranking which drops it to 9v so the additional bypass circuit connects the 9v battery to the 9v coil to start the motor.

Ballast circuit (Motor running) 12v Battery runs through the 9v ballast circuit which drops the 12v battery supply to 9v so it doesn't burn out the 9v coil.

(The ballast resistor can be a ceramic block type or a short section of wire type)

 

Non ballast - 12v coil, no ballast resistor

This system uses only a single circuit for both starting and running.

Single circuit (Starting) 12v Battery under high load dropping it to 9v but the more powerful 12v ignition system can start at 9v and so it does.

Single circuit (Running) 12v Battery runs the higher powered 12v ignition just fine.

(This is because the ignition system is more powerful overall and has no problem starting with the voltage drop on startup)

 

Now you can probably see that you could upgrade from ballast to non ballast coil quite easily, but upgrading the whole ignition

system as well would be a good idea... There's coils, ignition triggers, distributor re-curving, leads and plugs etc... Just remember

its a system so it needs to all work together, don't want to burn anything out in a hurry! especially those points ;)

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Ok, so Banjo, I can't just assume it doesn't have 3 terminals so therefore it can't be internally ballasted.

That's where you gave the bum steer haha.

In the interest of helping other who may stumble on this post for information, can I request we leave a perfect trail of information for future users and ask you to edit your post.

Your knowledge is so large, that anyone would see your name against a post and take everything you say as gospel.

"A coil with an internal ballast resistor is easily recognised as it has three (3) terminals." That clearly states that that they ALL have three terminals, not true at all, and not what you were trying to say I'm sure.

 

you should be using a coil with a primary resistance of 1.1 - 1.3 ohms, with your reluctor dizzy with ignitor.

Ok so, I should not just settle for a 3 ohm 12 volt coil, I really need the ballast resistor and 9V coil to be set up the same as a stock 5k pointless dizzy ignition.

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You want an ignition coil to suit an electronic ignition.

I recommend the Fuelmiser CC215. Replacement part for a large number of makes and models with electronic distributors from the mid 80's to 90's.

35$ on ebay.

 

Or you could go MSD Blaster, Fireball et if you want to spend more.

 

I use Bosch MEC723 with Streetfire CD ignition box.

 

The coil you have will work fine but is designed to be used with points dizzy with no ballast resistor.

 

 

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excellent, thank you GJM, that clears it up.

Just did some research and there's even a a sheet with the part numbers and resistance values for this number and all others..

overrated:

http://apps.bosch.com.au/AAExtranet_TechSearch/docs/GeneralInformation/TCoilspecs.pdf

 

Your post here in April 2014 had all the answers i needed.

http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/69409-coils-for-k-motors/

 

At only 1.1 ohms, will this run on straight 12 volts without a ballast? your April 2014 post doesn't clarify that.

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  • 1 month later...

Best mod I made was get a generic bosh accuspark kit. Had to modify it a bit , just some filing to match the holes . Basicaly converted the points to electronic for about 70 buks. As a plus no need for resistor so I used gt 40 coil and gapped plugs to .9 good starting and solid timing at high revs . Easy to do

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