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COPs on K Series Engine


Banjo

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Got myself an olde Haltech E6K ECU which I'm going to hook up to the 5K engine I have on the engine test frame at present.  I am just going to use the E6K for ignition control only.  It has enough outputs to do direct sequential firing of the four spark plugs, so though I might put some COPs (coil over plug) on the 5K, doing away with the dizzy altogether.

What brand of COP has anyone found suitable to use directly as is, or adapt to be useful on a K Series motor.  It's all about mounting them.

I think someone on RollaClub used a Honda one once successfully, but I can't remember who it was, or what model COP they used.  Maybe a motor bike one ?

Any suggestions appreciated.

Cheers Banjo

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I did look into it briefly, but the problem was the top of the spark plug is flush with the head where pretty much all cops have some sort of stem to come in between the dohc's. Between that mounting issue, price and the fact that ls1 coils have built in ignitors that's the way I went. I finally started some work on making mounting brackets for them last night after having them for years. Will hopefully have something knocked up in the next couple of weeks. 

What are you planning on doing about a trigger? Obviously needs to be dual pulse if you want to do sequential. 

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I just answered my own question, when I searched on RollaClub.  It was Brodie in S.A. who used Honda CBR bike COPs on his K series engine.

Yes most of the COPs, are long for spark plugs that are right down deep inside the tubes.  The K series plugs just pop their heads out of the tubes, so to speak.

The triggering is all worked out.  I have two rare earth magnets 10mm dia. x 25mm long mounted in the flywheel, using two manufacturing jig holes that exist exactly 180 deg apart. I just bored the jig holes out to the appropriate diameter. The north poles face the back of the flywheel, & the Hall Effect pickup sensor is mounted in the plate between block & bell housing, right down at the bottom RHS of the engine, directly below the oil filter.

The Home trigger, which only tells the ECU that the next pulse from the flywheel sensor is for No: 1 S.P. is mounted through the timing chain cover, with the magnet mounted into a hole drilled though the camshaft sprocket cast spoke.  Have had that bit installed for some time, currently just driving the tacho, & all works well & is very reliable.  Magnets are so strong, you can get away with a good size gap between magnet & sensor.

Just need to get these COPs sorted & then I can take it for a good long run to Leyburn for the Sprints in a couple of weeks. 

http://www.leyburnmotorsprints.com.au/

Cheers Banjo

 

 

 

Edited by Banjo
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Have done a little more research & have come up with the Toyota CoP P/N 90919-02240, which was fitted to the Toyota 1NZFE & 2NZFE engines on the Echo & Yaris cars.

90919-02240.JPG.fa40b823d4bfbb0bbf4b04651d290005.JPG

I chose these CoPs, as they have built in ignitors, which are both dumb & smart at the same time.  The dwell will continue, just as long as the trigger signal is present from the ECU, but will also produce a minimum dwell, irrespective of how short the trigger signal is.

These CoPs have a single bolt hole which normally bolts up flush with the Echo / Yaris camshaft cover.   My daughter has an 2004 Echo with a 1NZFE engine, so I "borrowed" a CoP from her car this morning, and set it up on a 4K head on the bench.

There are several spare 10mm threaded bolt holes on the rocker cover, on the spark plug side, which could anchor a simple, solid, single, mounting plate, to hold all four CoPs.

It would require just one bend in the mounting plate.  I'll fashion a mounting plate from a piece of then thinner aluminium, & dummy it all up on the bench, to make sure it all works & fits fine.   One of the advantages of this arrangement, besides doing away with spark plug leads, distributor cap, and existing coil, is that propped up in the air like that, they will not overheat, as there will plenty of air flow over them.

Apparently, from my reading on the net, overheating CoPs, tucked under plastic covers, (which often restricts air flow), can result in damaged or failed CoP coils & ignitors.

Although CoPs can be expensive, the 90919-02240 ones are relatively cheap.  I've even seen them new on ebay for less than $ 30.00 ea.

I'll post a picture here, once I dummy it all up.

Cheers Banjo

 

   

As explained in the section above all of the four will fire for as long as the duration of the activation ofal from the ECU. However they will also fire to minimum dwell time regardless of how short the signal is triggered, this minimum duration is hard wired and can't be altered.

Edited by Banjo
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I don't pretend to understand all this - at all!

Is it a modern way of running multiple coils or some such to magnify the zap in the spark?

Is it necessary to use an ECU to time the spark, or can it be done manually of the dizzy?

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I've just been working on my setup this morning. Have had a little bit of a redesign from what I originally intended. I'll go into a bit more detail in my projects thread. 

This is where I've got up to. Obviously mdf will get swapped out for alloy sheet, i'm just using it as a template at the moment....

 

15025098997271398900544.jpg

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1502509997112150692673.jpg

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12 minutes ago, parrot said:

I don't pretend to understand all this - at all!

Is it a modern way of running multiple coils or some such to magnify the zap in the spark?

Is it necessary to use an ECU to time the spark, or can it be done manually of the dizzy?

My current setup uses 'single pulse' trigger from an electronic dizzy. So the ecu knows when a spark event is happening, it just doesn't know on what cylinder. Hence why I still need to use the top half of the dizzy to distribute spark. Additionally the injectors need to be fired in a bank. 

With the custom cas I built, it has a 'dual pulse' on cylinder 1 and singles on the other 3 so the ecu will now know which cylinder is actually firing. Doing this you can run quad coils like this as well as sequential injection.... firing the injectors individually as the fuel is required essentially. 

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Love the toast rack way of mounting the LS1s.  I'd love to see a pic of whats under that spun aluminium pot lid on the dizzy !  I did something similar a couple of years ago.  I think I used a coffee jar lid for the CAS cover.

DSC01205.JPG.1b5ac469ca0efdc8a174b6f19b61b3fd.JPG

Is that the large Bosch dizzy case you are using, or maybe even the dizzy from a 7K, which is really big.  I remember I had trouble trying to cram everything into the Bosch one.

 

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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Thanks for the pics of your LS1 coils proposed mounting.  Glad to see I'm not the only one you puts old mats on the garage floor to work on.   Makes it much more comfortable, when you are down on your knees. (Also stops nuts & washers etc. rolling too far, when you drop them)

I'm actually going to use my above CAS multi-tooth triggering system to test my E6K on the bench, this week, before installing in the car, as the E6K supports multi-tooth wheels.  Mine happens to be 24 teeth, with 1 synchronising tooth. After reading your 5KTE KE55 build, I remember how hard it was to get the 4K Bosch dizzy shaft to join/line up to the adaptor for the CAS wheel, and have them exactly concentric.

However, I will be using the Hall Effect sensors for crankshaft sensing when I put it in the KE30. The first time I ever used crankshaft triggering, I was amazed how steady the strobe light was on the timing markings.  It didn't take me long to work out that there is a lot of "slop" between crankshaft & dizzy trigger point. Two (2) sprockets & chain at the front of the engine, & then the camshaft to dizzy shaft gearing.  With crankshaft triggering all that is eliminated.  Even if you do sequential direct firing of the spark plugs, & need a sych or a homing signal, which must be taken from the camshaft drive somewhere; there is no issue, as the synch or home pulse is not used to trigger. It just tells the ECU that the next trigger pulse must be directed to no: 1 cylinder, and can accommodate any slop without effecting the trigger angle at all.

I have built a system that requires no home or synch pulse & is rock steady. It uses two rare earth magnets in the flywheel, the same as I described earlier in this thread, except one has the North pole facing the Hall Effect Sensor, & the other has the South pole facing the sensor.  The Hall Effect sensor I use, has the ability to sense north & south poles & tell the difference.  I get two independent triggers from the one sensor, which fire two GMH Commodore ignition coils, set up in a waste spark configuration.

However, as good as this is, none of the commercial programmable ECUs accommodate this type of triggering set up, so hence, I move on to direct fire sequential using the COPs.

I'll keep you posted, once my COPs arrive, & I fit them to the 5K with suitable supporting bracket.

Cheers Banjo

    

 

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One of the other reasons, I went away from using a modified distributor optical sensor, is the issue of oil fumes coming up the distributor shaft, which can put a film over the optical sensor, & eventually impede its performance, which could lead to miss firing.  However, if anyone is considering having a go at modifying a K series Bosch dizzy, there are a number of Hall Effect modules for various dizzies, that could be used, in lieu of an optical sensors.  Tridon supply a complete range which can be viewed at the following link.

 http://www.tridon.com.au/products/Tridon/35/482/ignition/2009/crank-and-cam-angle-sensors#1

Cheers Banjo

 

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  • 1 month later...

I contacted Brodie, in South Australia, & He was very helpful, in sending me some close-up, detailed photos of his COP setup, which helped me refine my ideas.

I did a COP conversion on a head I had lying around, over the weekend, & I'm very happy with the results.

59bf4a4ae6bc9_2017-09-1813_43_57.thumb.jpg.b5e3560aad1004c92f4a234a294ad152.jpg

THE Toyota Echo/Yaris COPs I chose, have a single mounting bolt hole, which secures them to a 25mm square aluminium black tube, about 300mm long.  Four (4) off RivNuts (or NutSerts) on the rear side of the tube make it easy to insert & lock down each COP, with 6mm bolts, 40mm long.

The COP mounting tube is anchored to the rocker cover with 2 x 6mm bolts into 2 spare convenient threaded holes in the rocker cover, which happen to be perfectly in line with spark plug number 3.

59bf4bde2f3ea_2017-09-1813_44_44.thumb.jpg.52b8d352aedbb364816ebf314d9c63cc.jpg

To seal the COPs in the spark plug tubes, I removed four spark plug lead "boots" off some KE HT leads, & cut the centres out with a small sharp craft knife.  The edge of the resultant larger hole in the boot was a little jaggered on the edges, so I used a large O ring to cover the jaggered edge, & prevent the spark plug rubber boot, from coming out.

I'm just awaiting the COP electrical connectors to arrive.  I will fit & run the leads for each COP, into the aluminium mounting tube, with all wiring exiting at the rear of the tube, which is within 60-70mm from the firewall.  It will have a waterproof multi-way connector on it, so the whole COPs mounting tube assembly can be removed from the engine bay, if necessary.

The aluminium tube, plastic end caps,  O rings, bolts washers & RivNuts, cost less than $ 20 from Bunnings. The COPs can be purchased on line for as little as about $ 18.00 ea.

If anyone is interested in doing something similar, you can view a few more pics, from different angles at the following link.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AhTw-QJW1b_6iGqfzttvHcYpjvkD

Some may think that the COPs stuck up in the air like that look a little odd !  It does however, have one real advantage, in that there is plenty of air flow over them, so failure of COPs due to over heating, will be eliminated. The resultant arrangement is very rigid & strong.  I was able to pick up the whole head assemble by the mounting bar, & there is no movement at all.

I'll post some more pics, once I've got the wiring completed.

Cheers Banjo

 

Edited by Banjo
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Hi Simon,

                  Those rods & brackets at each end look very strong.  I love the way the blue HT leads are so short.

The Toyota COPs I used do have a built in ignitor.  I believe they can be driven by a 5 volt DC cmos output.

Quote

Ignition dwell time / firing duration

As explained in the section above all of the four-pin coilpacks from Toyota have a built in ignitior. In terms of dwell control (spark firing time) these coils are combine elements of both self controlled / "smart coils" and externally controlled / "dumb coils". They like the "dumb coils" will fire for as long as the duration of the activation of IGT signal from the ECU. However they will also fire to minimum dwell time regardless of how short the signal is triggered, this minimum duration is hard wired and can't be altered.

 

Also of note that like all coils if the duration / dwell time is set for too long then the coils will have a heat build up and an prematurely fail.

Have a look at this site . . . .

http://www.sq-engineering.com/tech-articles/coilpack-info-guide

They compare all the Toyota COPs.  You will notice the one I chose, (No: 4 in their picture), is the only one where the electrical connector, doesn't cock up at an angle.

I'll be testing them on the bench with a signal generator in the next 24 hours.

Cheers

Banjo 

Edited by Banjo
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