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Oil pump failure


Lukaswg

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I'll try to explain this the best as i can with my limited knowledge, 

There is a almost like a bubbling sound coming from the motor.. quite loud when idling on a hill, noticed this on my driveway

Same tempo, doesn't increase when reving

I suspect my oil pump is failing and the motor is quite starved for oil particularly on a hill. She has always been a little "tappety" but never really had anything to compare with

 

Are my assumptions heading in the right direction?

Should i be taking out the pump ?

 

 

Any help much appreciated, getting ready to go for an RWC so want to get everything sorted best i can

 

Many thanks

 

Edited by Lukaswg
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Hi Luke,

              Serious stuff, if it is the pump, as the result of low pressure or starvation can be a stuffed motor.

I wouldn't drive the car, until I had done a few tests.  

I presume the oil light on the dash is extinguishing, when you first start the car cold ?

I would get hold of an oil pressure gauge and check the oil pressure, cold & hot.

If you haven't changed the oil & oil filter recently, then this is a must.

Carefully check the colour & viscosity of the oil you drain out.

Remove oil cap & listen to the "bubbling" noise.

If not strong, see if you can get a stethoscope & listen on the side of the sump, above the oil line.

You need to determine, in what area the noise is loudest, as this will assist in determining its origin.

Let us know what you find.

Cheers Banjo

 

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bingo, i actually know thia one and have been waiting for someone to ask. haha

bubbling, ive heard bubbling when my cooling system has a bit of air in it.

the reason u hear it at idle is because the waterpump is running slow and heat is making steam pockets want to rise up the radiator, bubbling past the rest of it, and the engine is pointing up hill so all thw air pockets hang around in the radiator where noise is easily heard. when reving the engine, the water flow forces everything back down the radiator into the block where it globulates to large areas.

this is a problem because the water in ur coolant will be allowed to expand. expansion allows bubing which in turn allows temperature to increaese.

the solution is to ensure you do a good coolant refil. this is not as simple as filling the radiator till ful.

fill it up, put the cap on loose, start the car and let it warm up slowly. once u can feel the coolant in thw radiator starting to get too hit to compfortably stick ur finget in, rev the engine with ur funnger on the carby lever until u see the level in the radiator go down and the splash coming from the inlet pipe near the filler.

at this stage u want to fill the radiator at that rpm. and then let go, then do it once more with the same technique, but this time be ready with the cap. rev to lowest coolant level is seen, fill with water or coolant, then stick the cap on tight before letting the revs go back to normal.

 

i have perfected this texhnique, and can het an extra half litre of coolant into the system like this.

 

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Hey Guys,

Yeah the light doesn't stay on after I've started it, the oil is brand new and as clean as it can be when i check the dip stick, I'll get a hold of an oil pressure gauge 

as soon as i can, for now she is staying in the garage.

 

However i am hoping you are correct Jeremy sounds like a much better problem to deal with as i changed the coolant when i got it i don't remember the noise when buying the car or before hand, maybe i didn't burp it properly.

if it helps the car never gets over half way on the temperature gauge or even to half way when driving, but doesn't go far being unregistered.

 

 

Thanks

Edited by Lukaswg
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yeh give it a shot.

also one important thing that gets overlooked by even the best mechanics, but is fundamental and crucial, is the radiator overflow tank.

tbis doesnt just catch escaping coolant, it returns it to the radiator on cooldown.

if it isnt working as intensed, it will suxk air in on every cooldown. for it to work propperly it neesa.

1. coolant/water half way, above the bottom of the hose, the hose muat be submerged. if no water, the water comes out as steam and exits the wate tube, and then it sucka in air on coolsown.

2. a working vacuum valve on radiatir cap. if the spring and hole in the top of the cap is plugged with lime or rust, water will never get back i to the system and over time, not much time, the radiator will empty itself. see this diagram for the opeartion during cooldown.

https://www.google.com.ph/search?client=ms-android-oppo&ei=N1sCWp9sxOXSBPKVnOAM&sjs=3&q=radiator+cap+with+overflow+vacuum&oq=radiator+cap+with+overflow+vacuum&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3..35i39k1.7292.8505.0.9316.8.8.0.0.0.0.186.1099.0j7.7.0....0...1.1j4.64.mobile-gws-serp..1.7.1098...0i22i30k1.252.T4awlZ54RiM#imgrc=RaMC_NJY8IpkjM:

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Hi Luke,

              Think Jeremy is probably on the money here.

1 hour ago, Lukaswg said:

as i changed the coolant when i got it i don't remember the noise when buying the car or before hand, maybe i didn't burp it properly.

Purging air from the coolant system, particularly if you done a complete drain & coolant change is very important.

My technique has always been fill it up, then run the engine without the radiator cap on, & wait until the coolant heats up & expands & opens the thermostat. Once that happens, put the radiator cap back on, & usually everything works fine thereafter, everything else being equal.

However, the radiator cap's built in valve, the thermostat at the front top of the head, & the overflow plastic bottle & its pipework joints & pickup pipe, are all import factors in ensuring that the cooling system, works as intended.

For your sake, I hope it is a water coolant issue.  Easily fixed !

P.S.  If you haven't put a new thermostat in the engine, then do so.  Out of sight, but they cause all sorts of issues.  As a general rule, should be changed every couple of years.

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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its not until i got this 4k, that i learned just how much air can be stuck in the block and head.
Banjo, just for shits and giggles, try my revving method and see if all of a sudden u can fit an extra 500mls in urs.

No matter how long i let it sit there idling, it doesnt burp up any air, and when i rev it, the air makes its way to the top of the radiator, but as soon as u stop revving it, the level comes back up again because the air moves back to some other point high up in the motor and nestles itself there. so u have to put the cap on while its revving at about 1600 rpm while that bubble is up the front in the top tank, then when u let the revs go back to idle, nothing moves and nothing is overfull it just holds extra coolant hah.
 

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I'll try it next time Jeremy, & let you know if it works for me.  Short of fitting a water relief hole in the highest point in the head, I would think it would be very hard to eliminate all the air totally, inside the head's water jacket.  I'm not so sure a bit of air inside the head or block is detrimental.

I can't image Toyota providing an instruction, as you describe, in the owners manual.

Cheers Banjo

 

Edited by Banjo
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I usually cut the bottom off a 1.25ltr soft drink/water bottle. then wrap the thread bit for the lid with enough electrical tape for it to be tight in the rad neck. then fill to 3/4ish and run until the thermostat opens. Turn off and remove bottle from rad and fit cap! I guarantee it, learned it from an ex holden tech who worked there when the VL was released. The rad is a fair bit lower then the highest water point of the engine.

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Hi Stuart,

                Just noticed that SCA have a special universal funnel for bleeding cooling systems.

 

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Toledo-Coolant-Filler-Funnel-Set-305092/SPO1061622

Look at the price !  Jeremy's technique is a lot lot cheaper.

There is a few videos on the net describing this technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nThsFGa1vuE

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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i put it to u, that the funnel wouldnt even solve the issue I'm talking about. the water pump has to push the air pockets forward (by revving) to the radiator or else it just goes back immediately and sits in the block or head somewhere.

and as i said, its not just a little bit, for me its half a litre.

pushing water down from the top of the radiator wont help, the pump in the engine is the best at pushing air and water around.

in short, simply running the engine isnt good enough, regardless of how hot or hiw long u let it run. it must be revved to pull the air forward. 

at least the funnel trick will free up a hand while u sit in the car smoking a cigarette revving the engine!!

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In all my years working on K series engines, I've never been aware of "coolant system air bleeding" being a major issue.  I understand that a lot of modern cars have low front profiles, where the top of the radiator, & therefore the radiator cap, can easily be below the highest point in the engine's head water jacket, and henced trapped air in the coolant system needs to be bled from the system.  Manufacturers, in this case fit a bleed tap, to the highest point, & there are plenty of videos on the web, depicting how to bleed the air out.  I think Honda was one I remember having a bleed fitting, which looked just like an oversized brake bleeder fitting, so you could fit a tube over it, & drain any water that comes out of the tap with the air to the ground.

In my KE30 the radiator cap is a good 100mm + above the thermostat housing, which is the highest point of the coolant system, in the engine proper. 

So if some people are having this particular issue with K series engines, then is it not a simple fix to just fit a air bleed tap ? To my way of thinking, a simple place would be in the alloy thermostat housing, either just below, or on the top of the thermostat cover/spout.  (If it was below, you could bleed even before the thermostat opened).

However, there may be another place on the head where this could be implemented even easier, without having to drill & tap the thermostat housing.

On the top of the head, either side of the centre head bolt, directly behind the carby, there are two 17mm threaded bungs, that look like "head bolts.  These allow access into the head water jacket.  i'm not sure why they are there.  Maybe they were used in casting manufacture of the head originally ?  I think I read somewhere, there were possibly K series engines with water cooled manifolds, so maybe these were the take-off points, & when not used, are just plugged.

I know what Jeremy is saying, but I'm not convinced at the moment, that getting that extra 0.5 litres of coolant into the system is that important, or will make it function any better.

To me, the single biggest issue with the K series cooling system, is the poor water flow at the back of the head. This results from the fact that water enters & exits the front of the engine only, unless you have the heater on where on some models the heater take-offs are the rear of the head & then via a pipe running along the engine behind the distributor to the water pump at the front.  That is why if you are going to suffer a burnt exhaust valve, it will invariably be on no: 4 cylinder.  Likewise, if you blow a piston or rings, it will often be no: 4 again.

Cheers Banjo

 

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hey banjo my radiator is also well above the head and thermostat housing for that matter.

i think there are other forces at play perhaps with my setup. i have no heater, both in and out are capped. and also, no thermostat because with the thermostat in, i can't get this air out. i would love to know if anyone else can get the extra coolant in by revving the motor, or if its just me. its the same thing on my ke55 bush basher in aus.

500 mls of air is a big issue. maybe not everyone has a big an air pocket as me, but i had been suffering from a constant overheating issue going over the hills which seems to have resolved itself just by luckily accidentally experimenting and finding this "phantom air" and replacing it with water.

The cooling system takes a lot of liquid in these things, about 6litres, so there is a lot of people who buy a 4 or 5 L coolant premix and top it up with water; resulting in a weaker mix. (Thank u nulon and supershit for ur 6 L bonus deal). This means more pressures and more requirement for a sealed and airfree system. This is a closed system radiator which means it relies on pressure on the coolant to stop it expanding and bubbling. the glycol helps, but its mostly reliant on pressure. Water cannot compress, but air can, and this allows bubbles to form in the system when the air is allowed to absorb pressure from the water which is trying to expand.

banjo I'm typing this for others, i assume u are the full quid on this as u have steered me in the right direction in the past on this topic!

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Hi Jeremy,

                   I will try your technique & see if it is possible to get 0.5 extra litres into my cooling system.  I'll even run the front wheels up on the ramp, to give the water pump the best chance of purging out those pesky air pockets in the top of the head, when I rev it up.  I'll let you know the result.  

In very old cars, which were designed & built with screw on radiator caps, without pressure relief valves incorporated, their manuals always suggested only filling the radiator up to "an inch below the neck", to allow room for the expansion, rather than run the risk of bursting the old fabric/rubber hoses.  The air in the coolant system, then allowed for the coolant's expansion.

They had springs in the lower radiator hose also, to stop them collapsing when the water cooled & created a vacuum.

Have a read of the following discussion, & especially the varied "comments" at the end.

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2016/07/21/9-cooling-system-myths-and-mistakes-and-why-to-avoid-them/

There are those that believe that removing the thermostat, as you have done, actually results in the engine overheating.

Lots of food for thought there, & a good read !

P.S.  I'd never lead you astray deliberately.     

Cheers Banjo

 

 

 

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