Oil pump failure

[Big G]

The twin carby manifolds of the 3kb engines were water cooled and from memory are in the area you are talking about Bango.

[rebuilder86]

yes but those were as u mentioned, screw on caps. that makes them similar to the current day expannsion tank system, where the expansion tank is connected to the radiator and they are reinforced and look like this.

layout 

 

what they look like.

https://www.google.com.ph/search?client=ms-android-oppo&biw=360&bih=266&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=xsYDWou4B4HQ0ASM87bQAQ&sjs=3&q=radiator+expansion+tank+design+holden&oq=radiator+expansion+tank+design+holden&gs_l=mobile-gws-img.3...37445.38508.0.39043.8.4.0.0.0.0.309.728.0j1j1j1.3.0....0...1.1j4.64.mobile-gws-img..5.0.0....260.cZZTWxlUkss#imgrc=QYMEbmuHLqUBzM:

 

we don't have this, we have a pressurised system, and it must have little to no air.

[rebuilder86]

if u have air in ur system, and perfect 50/50 coolant mix, and u do not get any bubbling, it means ur cooling system is running on the cooler side of the operating range. and thats no problem. thats great.

But if ur cooling system is a bit gummed up, or the thermostat is the hot one, or your coolant is simply water, you are in marginal territory and any air is a big problem. as OP is experiencing.

also the older rad caps were simply vented and not sealed, and they ran on methanol as a coolant i think. maybe thats why the design changed to compressed pressurized systems.

i still see those steel springs in modern car bottom hoses. my frikn subaru 2001 outback had them. I always asumed it was just so it didnt kink or warp due to heat.

Edited November 9, 2017 by rebuilder86

[rebuilder86]

2 hours ago, Banjo said:

 

There are those that believe that removing the thermostat, as you have done, actually results in the engine overheating.

yep and i wish i could find a replacement. but i just have to live without it and keep the revs down.

when i climb up the hill in 2nd gear as opposed to first, i get a cooler temp and that is because the pump gives the water a chance to conduct its heat into the radiator.

if i choose third gear the engine produces so much heat due to retarded ignition and pushes it into the overheating zone. this shits all over everyones comments that driving in low rpm is the best way to keep an overheating engine cooler. there is a sweetspot. and uve gotta work hard to find it. for me that has meant 2 years of perfecting the runup before each hill and shifting gears at the right time. the number of times ive overheated this 4k sais alot about the strength of this engine.

i was in my father in laws multicab (equivalent to suzuki carry in australia) the other day, straight 3 cylinder motor, with a whopping 38 kw, 7 passengers, up these hills, the thing spat out all its coolant (straight water) without me knowing and overheated and melted the timingbelt which went off with a bang. The needle was in the normal zone and i know the sensor was calibrated perfectly. this shows how bad straight water is. luckily, its a non intrusive non interference design so was able to fix it on the side of the road. bloody dangerous though.

[kickn5k]

Straight water has the best thermal transfer rate of any liquid. The glycol is only there to stop the water freezing and slow down corrosion. 

The funnel trick 100% works. Just ask yourself why do all the top of the line tool companies make a variant of it.

But then again I'm not the full quid apparently, so what do i know.

 

[rebuilder86]

ethelyn glycol is not only for freezing.

sorry if this sounds rude, but it is basic knowledge that coolant mix provides boilover peotection. it also has corrosion inhibitors and other things.

look on the back of any good coolant concentrate bottle. u will see differnet concentrations and the reaulting boilover temp range.

i watched a funnel video and yes it seema that if u have a big one and hang it from the bonnet, with enough head height it helps, but then the guy snaps the throttle and all the bubbles come up. exactly as i described.

what i was saying is the funnel alone will not resolve the issue,  u need to rev the engine to get the air to the radiator.

Edited November 9, 2017 by rebuilder86

[rebuilder86]

kickn stop reading united states of american automotive stuff. haha :p

that country has the stupidest humans on earth. apart from nasa.

cross the nth parralel up in to canada and they are a vastly different intelect.

anyway, yes, water transfers heat better, but only slightly better.

I read that if u ran 100 percent glycol with no water, the difference in heat transfer at  temps of around 100 degrees celcius is about 10 percent worse than straight water. I read that in a very technical engineering thesis about cooling systems. This tells me it is not enough of a factor to consider straight water a good option for anyones situation.

would love it if anyone else has read that pdf and knwws a link. i doubt it. It was a year ago i found it and my computer died since then :(

Edited November 9, 2017 by rebuilder86

[ke70dave]

Its a trade off, although glycol provides "anti boil over" properties, in the form of a higher vapour pressure, it actually reduces the heat capacity of the working fluid. So the glycol wont boil as easily but it wont move as much heat before it does boil. 

Specific heat capacity is the number in question here, water - 4.2 J/g/c , Glycol - 2.2 J/g/c

The units being joules per gram per degree celcius. Essentially how much energy it takes to heat one gram of lyquid up by 1 degree. Glycol can only take aproximately 50% of the amount of energy as water for the same temperature change. essentially the glycol can transmit less energy for a given temperature increase.. 

I would think that your 10% "worse" figure should be around 50% worse based purely on the specific heat values. If you can find that technical engineering thesis i would be interested. 

The difference between "cooalnt" and water is negligable. I have straight water in my bmw at the moment, (really should put in coolant) and it handles the heat just fine. Race cars use straight water so that if their coolant system explodes they don't leave shit all over the track. Saying "shows how bad straight water is" does not stack up. 

Here is nice summary,

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/glycol-or-water-coolant/

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by ke70dave

[rebuilder86]

i say "it shows how bad straight water is" because if he ran 50/50 coolant/water, with the needle in the middle of the normal zone where it was during the event, the temp mustve been within engineered limits, but it still spilled it out. understand my point now?

if it was 50 50, as engineers designed it, it wouldnt have boiled over.

water is fine, so long as u can garuantee the cooling system is able to cope keeping the temp under 100 celcius. thats not going to happen with air bubbles, driving up hills, dirty cooling systems, and most of the issues we face with older vehicles like ignition timing and mixture problems.

the thermostat is desigbed to operate between 80 and 100 (maximum range between hot and cold thermostat versions) so ideally u shouldnt ever reach this point. 

as soon as u go over 100 celcius, u better hope that straight water is nice n air free, or else u start risking bubbles, and bubbles cause an exponential increase in heat. a bit like thermal runaway.

A modern expansion tank system, as i illuatrated abive, or an old non pressurized system simply cannot run on pure water. but our rollas along with most modern motors are relitively safe (temperature wise) with there pressurized systems.

saying all that, i remember the corrosion and crap i saw in my 4k motor when i rebuild it. cast iron doesnt go well without the corrosion inhibitor in coolant. USE COOLANT.

[rebuilder86]

rather than posting refferences to outside sources, I'm just blurting out insightful experience. I hope I'm not coming across as arrogant. 

however i will now have to find this pdf thing, because what u say about the specific heat capacity looks the goods and i am not at that level of nomenclature to understand those terms completely.

[rebuilder86]

this isnt it, but its still pretty good and on topic.

https://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://durathermfluids.com/pdf/techpapers/pressure-boiling-point.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiN7dWkjrHXAhUHsJQKHX2oB-MQFggoMAE&usg=AOvVaw0D0PEQDmdXyaVc07jpE-X7

 

and for a good explanation of the different tyoes of coolant, a and b, and the different colours, this is a great read from beginning to end.

https://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/pdf/tech/Nov2015/Coolants.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiN7dWkjrHXAhUHsJQKHX2oB-MQFgg-MAQ&usg=AOvVaw0xU4G4ppv75yBzPt2VKRaK

on page 7 it shows the the tybe b products (just corrosion inhibitor) for old cars as mentioned before, which are vented, so glycol would be pointless as they are not pressurized because they are deaignes to run frikn cold.

u know how u read in oil companies tech documents that nodern cars run hotter than older cars, its true and this is just one of the reasons why. older "classic" car engines where shite because cooling systems requires them to run cooler than optimal to keep the water available and not have it turn to steam.

[rebuilder86]

found the stuff was looking for, not the exact thing (thrsis) but it proves what u said to be true, that straight glycol is half as good as water at transfering heat.

page 21 figure 9

https://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.meglobal.biz/media/product_guides/MEGlobal_MEG.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiSwIfOlLHXAhUBjpQKHZckC6QQFghHMAM&usg=AOvVaw2mwuF7aA0nVkHyPTzlaxzP

however i wonder if preasure affects these figures, perhaps the thesis guy was right.

Edited November 9, 2017 by rebuilder86

[rebuilder86]

sorry for spamming.

a bit more research.

I'm going to say the official number is 100% ethelyn glycol is exactly 33% worse than water with relation to specific heat capacity.

 dave your figires are at ISA,  std atmosphere and temp on a standard day.

the cooling system is at pressure and is at 100 degrees.

see page 33 

https://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp%3Ffilepath%3D/heattrans/pdfs/noreg/180-01190.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjAl-fNmrHXAhWLj5QKHS_IB7QQFggwMAE&usg=AOvVaw2FzV2T4Vm7Gasb2iZTznOF

 

ill stop now. getting obsessed. don't think anyone cares. hah

[altezzaclub]

As I understand it, this 'coolant' stuff used to be called anti-freeze, it depresses the freezing point. That's because it lowers the freezing point in snowy places like Orange, and no-one gave a shit about boiling-point elevation.   They tossed in some nitrite to act as a corrosion inhibitor and everyone started using it instead of just those living in the snow.

If your motor won't stay cool on water, then you have problems. It shouldn't go above 100deg, so you should never need to rely on the glycol to give you an extra 10deg  to boiing point. The pressurising of the sytem already pushes the boiling point up. 

I love the engineers arguing in the comments about the 'myths of the cooling system'!  They're such engineers!  Women could be stripping their clothes off in front of them and they'd still be arguing over which engineering equation to use!  Then some guy comes in and says "I did this and it worked!"

[ke70dave]

I agree with your comments but this is kind of getting out of hand. Reality is, in general, your coolant system should not go more than ~10degrees higher than the number stamped on your thermostat. If it does go higher somethhng is either stuffed in the coolant system or your cooling system is not up to the task of cooling your motor. 

My vdo temp gauge gradually climbs to 82degrees amd sits there rock solid all day everyday wether it is 10degrees outside or 45degrees. Funnily enough its an 82deg thermostat. That's how it supposed to work. More modern cars do run alot hotter and even 100degC doesnt seem out of the question and maybe the glycol thing does have an effect but anything in 1980s should be around 80degC or whatever the thermostat is.

Put it this way. If a modern car lost all its coolant and I filled it up with only water to get home I would expect it to work perfectly fine.