rebuilder86 Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 thank u dave id like to quote ur comment about the outside temp making no difference on your high quality gauge to win an argument in another forum haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 . . . . . . . . . And to think this little discussion started because poor Luke thought his oil pump had "karcked" it ! Hope you are not too confused now Luke; & please let us know, if it sorted out your "burbling" noise ! Sorry we all hijacked your post. Cheers Banjo P.S. I'm off to bed now, after filling my hot water bottle with Glycol, so there is a 50:50 chance of getting a good nights sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ke70dave Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 10 hours ago, Banjo said: P.S. I'm off to bed now, after filling my hot water bottle with Glycol, so there is a 50:50 chance of getting a good nights sleep. Checked the forum when i woke up this morning at 4am, woke the wife up with an uncontrolled blurt of laughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) hahah. i had to come back here and put one piece of information to bed.. that 9 myths link, which i had stumbled upon aswell, to me is worth nothing just from that one point about filling up one inch under the cap. thats total utter garbage. i think the writer may have been taught something about expansion tank setups, and yes, on those the cap is in the expansion tank and the full level is half way up the tank. today, go to any new vehicle showroom, and any vehicle with the bonnet open and a cool engine, with a cap on a radiator. while no one is looking, open the radiator and see that the radiator is full to the brim. sorry i just want to make sure none of my fellow enthusiasts of this great engine get lead to introduce air into their pressurized systems because of an incorrect web article. google "fill cooalnt to brim or one inch" and read every forum. there are lots of people repeating this garbage but in every forum there is one person who understands and puts the argument to rest with an intellectual explanation of what air in the cooling system does. Edited November 9, 2017 by rebuilder86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 the internet is just full of wrong info. google "coolant expansion tank vs overflow" and the first hit which looks reputable because of googles view settings, is utter bullshit. he sais an overflow tank can't return coolant because the valve apring is shut. he simply doeant know about the vacuum valve in the middle of the cap. and he also doesnt know about what a true expansion tank is. that is, a takn which is connectes within the coolant flow and does actually contain air. these systems are only implemented on vehicles whos cooling systems are so large they don't boil, and rely on minimal metal to coolant contact inside the coolant passages to limit the effect of the colder coolant. these vehicles also require a different coolant. look at a vt commodore for example, it has the expa sion system and therefor must have a 50/50 mix. https://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/TANKS.html&ved=0ahUKEwivgs3G3bLXAhUMu7wKHYrPB-oQFggxMAI&usg=AOvVaw00cCOgjJZYEM7a2JeomU6v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) I thought we had finished with this one, but there is the risk, that talking about coolants, & their effects on different engines, from different eras, with different evolutions of the automotive engine cooling system, we could well confuse some readers or researchers, in relation to the K series engine. Strangely enough, the Toyota Yellow bible 2K - 5K manual, only has 8 pages on the cooling system, & 2 off them on electric radiator fans. I'll go through the manual & pick out pieces of information/specs, at the back of the bible, that are relevant to the cooling system & put them up here for future reference, so watch this space. We can describe info & experiences, regarding the cooling system, that only relates to the K Series engine. The K Series, having a cast iron block & an aluminium head, can suffer seriously, if there is any acidity in the coolant fluid. Two different metals, & an acidic fluid between them (electrolyte) creates a battery; currents flow & metal moves . . . you get the picture. On my daily drive KE30, & on my test bed engine, I have a temperature sensor adaptor hooked into the bottom radiator hose. Isolated from the engine like this, via the rubber hose, it is fast reacting, as there is little "heat sink" effect. I have a temperature data logger, where I can record the temperature of both the sensor shown above & the engine temp sensor up on the side of the thermostat housing. The results of these two sensors, graphed together over a drive, show clearly the operation of the cooling system, and whether it is working as it should. I once added a third sensor in front of the grilled which indicated so clearly when the car was moving & when it was stopped at the lights etc. An ambient sensor in the data logger itself, helps relate all the stored readings to outside temperature, & lets you see its effect on the cooling. I'll see if I can't dig out my graphs & pop them up here later. In the meantime, here is a very interesting promotional video, from someone you will recognise, which touches on many of the things "cooling/coolant" that have been discussed here in this post in the past day or so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7PykrgzWPQ Cheers Banjo Edited November 10, 2017 by Banjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) sorry mate i can't watch it coz my net is too slow, but i hate jay leno more than anything so its ok haha waterless coolant hey..... Edited November 10, 2017 by rebuilder86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 gee thats funny, the technical specs for that stuff list the specific heat at 90 degrees and thermal conducivity at 90 degrees to be exactly the same as ethelyn glycol at 90 degrees. thats crap, it cannot transfer heat to the radiator. thats because it IS just ethelyn glycol. OH we got a famous person to advertise it. once again, The USA is the last place id turn to for engineering solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted November 10, 2017 Report Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) hahha found the msds, yep its just ethelyn glocol. absolute tossers. wont take heat out of ur cylinders. water would be better. how about just doing what we r supposed to so and use it mixed with water. read this.hilarious. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1547065 Edited November 10, 2017 by rebuilder86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) We've had a spot of very hot weather in the past week or so, so I thought it might be a good idea to check the health of the cooling system. I have two (2) coolant temperature sensors fitted to the engine. One is in a spare spot, in the thermostat housing, directly under the thermostat, which is the point in the engine, where the coolant is hottest, & controls the thermostat opening. The other is in the lower hose, where the coolant should be at lowest temperature after passing down through the radiator. The difference between these temperatures, indicates the efficiency of the radiator. By logging both temperatures, you can see everything changing. You can see the max temp is about 88 deg, which is when the thermostat opens, & the temperature drops. The difference between the readings, is the cooling effect of the radiator. These were short runs, so the wiggly bits at the top of the graph, could well be stopping at traffic lights. When you do a long run in the country, the wiggly bits are the thermostat opening & closing. Look how long it takes the block to cool down, even over night. I forgot to hook up an ambient temperature sensor, so you can relate these temperatures to the prevailing O/S air temps at the time. Next time ! Here is a shorter/zoomed section of the above graph, depicting just one early morning trip to the city, to drop my daughter off to work. Note that the coolant temp, only once reached 80 deg C, so it it is probable that the thermostat never really opened, because it was just after dawn. The lower temperature (blue), is a result of the ram effect of the air through the radiator. This is where a thermofan can assist, as the fan would be off, unless the temperature exceeded say 90 deg C. I am considering fitting a thermofan, as the engine is then not driving the fan constantly, and sucking a couple of HP, that could be better spent, going to the wheels. Cheers Banjo Edited January 18, 2018 by Banjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parrot Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Years ago my best mate and I had essentially identically modified TA22’s, except he had an import wrecker 2TG which was presumed stock. I had a 2T with moderate head work, modest compression, exhaust and twin 40 dcoe’s. At Calder, he generally had just enough over me to pull away marginally on the straight. The next time we went, I secretly removed the non clutch fan, which had the effect that I could now gradually pull away from him. Drove him insane, trying to work out what had changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 these graphs are so damn awesome, thank u banjo for taking the time to post them. this is the kind of data i trawl the net looking for to learn about efficiencies and just how things realy work in practice. i don't quite follow ur point about the thermostat not even opening in the 2nd chart. is 88 degrees (as marked on tstat) the beginning opening temp? surely if the tstat didnt open at all over an hour of driving it would just get hotter and hotter?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) Quote surely if the tstat didnt open at all over an hour of driving it would just get hotter and hotter?? Hi Jeremy, I know you live a bit closer to the equator that we do, and it is probably on average hotter where you are, than what we experience, here in Australia. However, it is quite possible for the thermostat to not open at all, if the temperature of the coolant, doesn't reach the cracking open preset temperature of the thermostat. Generally, thermostats made by all the major manufactures, start to open somewhere between 80-84 deg C, & are fully open by about 95 deg C. Over this temperature range, the thermostat opens usually 8-10mm. You can pop a thermostat in one of your lady's saucepans, on a gas stove, (a practise my wife always frowns on) & watch this clearly. A thermostat is not an on/off device. It will open proportionally, dependent, on the temperature. So if it starts to open at 80 deg C, & is fully open at 95 deg C, (15 deg C spread) if you held the temperature at 87.5 deg C, then theoretically, it should hold at half open. Thermostats do not usually fully cut off all water flow. Most engines, including your 4K, have thermostat bypass circuits, where a nominal amount of flow occurs all the time. Toyota Yellow Workshop K Series "Bible" Page 5-2 Even the thermostat you use, will have a little hole in it, to allow water to flow a little, & stabilise pressure across the thermostat itself. There is no rubber sealing point on a thermostat. It is a simple metal to metal immersed thermostic controlled water flow valve. There are other ways of cooling the engine coolant, besides the radiator. Airflow over the block, despite it having just removed some heat from the radiator fins, is still much cooler than the coolant & block temperature. In very cold climates, where it is difficult to get engine & coolant temperature up to ideal operating temperatures, they block off the radiators all together, during winter, so that the thermostat can open up, & water flow increase. Many big diesel tracks, have grills in front of the radiator, that are actually louvres/shutters, that open & close, manually, or under thermostatic control, to reduce airflow. In winter in some very cold countries, it is common, to add electrical heaters inside the car, as turning on the heater, & "pinching" some of the engines heat, to heat the cabin up, is very detrimental to the engines performance. Most cabin heater water, never passes through the thermostat, because the take off point is behind the thermostat. The first 15-20 minutes of driving a car, is the period when it is most inefficient. Most wear in your car's engine, occurs in the first 2 minutes of driving, after starting the car from a cold start. That's why taxis used on shift work, which barely stop all day, get such extremely high kilometers out of their engines. Sorry to be so verbose, but to answer your query, the engine will not get "hotter & hotter", because as soon as it reaches 80-84 deg C, the thermostat will open, more water will flow through the radiator, & the coolant temperature will stabilise, or ideally maintain a temperature below boiling point of the coolant. Cheers Banjo Edited January 19, 2018 by Banjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ke70dave Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 look at all this science! how exciting. Love the pre-post temperatures above. I always wanted to do a pre-post temperature across an intercooler. Be very nerdy and interesting to watch the delta T change in different conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) Hi Dave, Any decent data logging software these days, allows you to create additional graphing lines, that are parameters, not directly measured, but are functions of the parameters that are measured. DeltaT = T1 - T2, or common arithmetic ones like Power = Amps x Volts Here is a section of the graph above, showing Delta T, for the temperatures at each extreme of the coolant system. They say, "what gets measured, gets managed", or "without data, it's just a matter of opinion". Once you see data graphically, you see all little things that actually do happen, but are unseen generally. eg: Where the journey ends, on the red trace of top engine coolant temperature, the temperature actually rises, after you turn the engine off, whereas, the bottom radiator hose water temperature just falls away, immediately. Logical, when you think about it, but that is why cars with turbos & thermostatic coolant fans, "run on" after the engine is switched off. You walk through a shopping centre car park, on a hot day, and you can tell the cars that have recently been vacated; all sitting there, with electric fans purring away. Cheers Banjo Edited January 19, 2018 by Banjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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