Wingsforwheels

WTB- Programmable ignition

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Hi all, 

I need to have my distributor recurved, and thought it would be fun to go down the programmable ignition timing route instead. Does anyone have a programmable ignition setup they want to sell? I'm not worried whether it's MSD, silicon chip, etc., but preferably something that could be triggered by points. Will probably need postage to Canberra.

Cheers

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Hi Jasper,

                 May be able to help you out there, but need to know a bit more about the engine you are going to fit it to.

What model engine is it ?  Has it been modified or upgraded in performance in any way.

What model dissy does it currently have fitted ?   3K, 4K, 5K, 7K ?

Does it have an octane manual adjuster knob on it ?

Is the dissy in reasonable condition, in regard to bushes etc. ?

Fire us off some answers to these queries & I'll put a solution suggestion up here later today.

Cheers Banjo

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Hi Banjo,

 

Thanks for the quick response. 

The ignition upgrade is for a 5k, with a mild road cam, slightly higher compression and twin Dellorto 40s. 

At the moment it has a 4k Bosch dizzy, which I am running with just the mechanical advance (no vacuum). It has no octane switch. 

The dizzy has very little side to side play. I read somewhere that you can check the wear on the dizzy cam lobe and shaft by putting the pickup for the timing light on the coil lead, and seeing if the marker on the crank jumps around--it was very uniform when I tested it this way.

I remember reading a while ago that you set up programmable ignition with the silicon chip setup, and am hoping to do something similar to this, potentially using points as the trigger rather than upgrading to an Accuspark.

 

Cheers

Jasper

 

 

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If you have an electronic dizzy the VR sensor in side can be used on basically any programmable ECU if you lock out the vacuum advance. 

Years go i did exactly this on a suzuki G13a engine (essentially an overhead cam version of a 4k). I used a haltech E8 but anything will work as long as it has one in put for VR and one output for ingnition, and if you are going ignition only you can get something really cheap. you will need a "dumb" ignitor and a coil to go with it. I got a bosch bim024 ignitor off an old Barina and coil to go with it. worked quite well on my g13a. 

Banjo is your man on all things k motor EFI though ;)

 

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Hi Jasper,

                 I would strongly suggest, if you are going to head into programmable ignition, that you seriously consider another kind of trigger, rather than just using points.

Points really suck, when used in this precise application. The rubbing block wears, & the cam lobes in the dizzy wear, providing slightly different timing for each trigger.  Oh, & they have a habit of bouncing/oscillating at high revs.

On top of that, you have to keep the points "wet", by passing a reasonable current through them.  Not enough to arc, but enough to get a good clean signal.  >100mA.

The reason for this, is to "burn off" the very thin film of oil vapour that builds up inside the dizzy, & on the points contact surfaces.

I would strongly advise using a non contact system, such as the Accuspark, or maybe a K Series electronic dizzy with VR sensor, as Dave has suggested.

The only trouble with VR electronic dizzies is, that their output is dependent on RPM, and when you are cranking, the output of the trigger, is at it's lowest.

VR sensor wires are also polarised. Does not work very well, if wired in reverse.

There are two kinds of  K Series electronic dizzies. Those with VR sensor only, & those with a VR sensor plus an in-built electronic ignitor.

The model with built-in electronic ignitor is the better one, as you simply connect the output wire to a 100 ohm, 10 Watt resistor, the other end of which is connected to +12V ignition circuit.  You then get a nice square 12 volt trigger pulse out of the dizzy, to feed to your ECU.

Even if you can get hold of a K Series dizzy with VR sensor, but no built-in ignitor, you can grab a Bosch BIM024 module, as Dave has suggested, & attach the above mentioned 100 ohm resistor to the BIM024 coil connections.  I ran one of those for several years, without issues.

image.png.73c310c253a6c6ef714c53a3bb07bb6b.png

The advantage of the Accuspark is, that being a Hall Effect device, it gives the same output amplitude, irrespective of the RPM.

All electronic programmable ignition systems, needs a MAP sensor, so you can dispense with the vacuum advance/retard device.  However, you will need to dissemble the dizzy, & remove all the bob weights & springs, & then lock the shafts up, so all advance & retard, comes from the programmable ECU.  The dizzy, then becomes simply a trigger device, & distributor of the HV to each spark plug.

The Accuspark has another advantage, as you can use it directly to get the engine started, & then switch automatically to programmable ECU, as soon as the ignition key comes back to the "run" position.

The very best K series dizzy, that I found, to create a source for electronic trigger pulses, is the 3K Denso model, with the Octane adjuster knob. This dizzy is the physically smallest of the K series dizzies.  Accuspark do a module for it specifically.  They are very easy to "lock up", & remove the vacuum advance unit.

DSC02746.JPG.d261b17ddb398947e53f9911a04acf65.JPG

DSC02750.JPG.e5414caf2b96dc77e5c04f82c4c68487.JPG

I actually made one up for an experiment a week ago.   Took me all of 1 hour.  3mm roll pin was all I needed.

Hope that assists your decision.

Let us know how you are going to trigger the ECU, then I'll give you suggested options for ECU.

Cheers Banjo 

 

 

  

 

 

                  

Edited by Banjo
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Wow lots of detail guys, thanks a lot. 

I take your point about using a better and more consistent trigger than points. 

So it sounds like the other two options are 1) electronic dizzy, (either the way you suggest Dave, or with the in-built ignitor as Banjo says), or 2) upgrade to Accuspark in a points distributor. 

Because of what you say about the Hall effect system Banjo, I am leaning toward option 2.  

7 hours ago, Banjo said:

The Accuspark has another advantage, as you can use it directly to get the engine started, & then switch automatically to programmable ECU, as soon as the ignition key comes back to the "run" position.

Banjo, you say that the 3k Nippon Denso dizzy is the best for this kind of system. I could put a separate post up to see if anyone has a spare, but alternatively there is an Accuspark unit for the larger Bosch dizzy which I found here: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Toyota-Corolla-KE55-4K-Electronic-Ignition-Conversion-Kit-for-Bosch-Distributors-/163154525979 so I could convert my current one and go down that path. I pulled it out tonight and the mechanical advance looks easy enough to lock up. The vacuum advance on this one just unscrews too. Is there another reason you prefer the 3K dizzy?

 

Cheers 

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I can vouch for the Accuspark unit. I put one in my daughters Bosch dissy for her 4k as it kept chewing points. Took $78 dollars 20 minutes to install and I havent looked at it for 12 months.

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Thanks for the endorsement Graeme !   Like you, once I put it in, I never touched it again.

Jasper, the cheaper option would always be to modify your existing Bosch 4K dizzy, and add the Accuspark.

I like the Denso 3K dizzy for two reasons.

1.  They are physically, the smallest of all the K Series dizzies available.

2. To my knowledge, none of the other Denso's or Bosch K series dizzies had the Octane adjuster on them.

The reason I like the Octane setting is two fold.

You can tweak the initial idling static advance, without changing all the ECU map.

With the Accuspark, if your ECU was to die on you, you can run on the Accuspark only, as the ignitor can handle a coil with > 1.4 ohm primary impedance (resistance).

1736711527_FastStartMod.thumb.jpg.8fd3853cfea8c0e9e77679ce56406549.jpg

Now you won't have any auto advance or vacuum retard, but it will allow you to " limp" home. (I've actually tried it)  The Octane setting allows you to screw the advance up to a setting much higher than static.

P.S.   The other reason you might want to retain your original dizzy, & get another one, that you can modify, is that you can carry the old one around in the boot, & if all else fails miserably, you can swap dizzies over on the side of the road, & get safely home. All you need in addition, in the boot, is a 12mm & 19mm ring spanners.

I was never a boy scout, but I am always prepared.  Have never ever been towed home or left stranded in my whole life, in any of my Rollas.

Cheers Banjo

 

Edited by Banjo

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I came across the Black Box programmable ignition recently, out of the USA, which is very like the Silicon Chip / Jaycar unit, in terms of features. 

image.png.4f180e12e6335c6c50f1376249ff17c1.png

 

However, the Black Box, can apparently program the advance map/curve using a supplied software program, which is a big benefit, over the Silicon Chip unit.  The Silicon Chip unit, requires a hand control kit, which are almost non existent now.  The Jaycar unit is slow to program with a 15 x 15 advance map.  The Black Box one has 21 x 21 map, which provides more resolution, in both axes.

Has anyone on Rollaclub ever used or had any experience with the Black Box unit ?    Another advantage is the Black Box unit is not a kit.  It works right out of the box.

Would be keen to hear from anyone.

https://www.cbperformance.com/CB-s-Black-Box-Programmable-Timing-Control-Module-p/2013.htm

Cheers Banjo

P.S.   There a couple of handy free calculators on the above website, under "Support" for engine & gearbox ratios.

 

Edited by Banjo

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Interesting, I wonder how it works with the usual KE electronic dizzys we use?

Hooks up to points / Optical / or Hall Effect sensors, like the Accuspark. They hook it up to a VW engine with simple points.

Have a look at Utube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qv87mFw6T4

I want one of their engine dyno setups in my garage !   

Here is another video you might enjoy, on subject !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtfrlUyhaH4

 

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo

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The accuspark sounds great, and easy to install! I love the idea of never worrying about points wearing, grease on the rubbing block, etc., and it's cool that it is hidden under the dizzy cap too. 

 

10 hours ago, Banjo said:

You can tweak the initial idling static advance, without changing all the ECU map.

This may be a silly question, but would this be different to adjusting the timing a few degrees with a 12mm spanner as you normally would on the Bosch distributor?

Like you, I always have a set of spanners, sockets, points, plugs, condenser, fuel hose/clamps,etc. In the car, so this adjustment would be fine if something were to go wrong with the ignition box. 

It occurred to me I have a second complete Bosch dizzy from my 4k (the 5k came with a 4k dizzy as well). I have checked it for play, and it is in good nick too. If I go down this path I'll look at locking up the advance mechanism later this evening. 

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The black box looks promising--I'll have a look into reviews tonight, and if no one has a similarly cheap ecu spare, I could just bite the bullet and order an accuspark and the box. That way I can give a write up on here on whether they're any good!

Edited by Wingsforwheels

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This may be a silly question, but would this be different to adjusting the timing a few degrees with a 12mm spanner as you normally would on the Bosch distributor?

Not a silly question.  Yes, slackening off the 12mm bolt, & turning the dizzy slightly will do the exact same thing.  I'm just lazy, & don't want to get my tools out, if it is at all possible !

Let me do a little more research tomorrow, on the Black Box unit, & see if I can find any downside to its use, that may be reported on auto forums, before you order same.

Actually came across a video this afternoon, of an Aussie, who fitted one on is olde skool Holden, & was having some issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=YjGOmkZH1hc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXhCcHPi7p4

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo

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Hi Jasper,

                  Had a look around the net yesterday, & can't find anything adverse about the Black Box unit.  The Utube videos seem to indicate it is quite simple to install,  & well thought out.

If you want to bite the bullet, I'd be very pleased to hear your assessment of it, once you get it.

There is another Australian one, called Speeduino, but it is a kit & you have to assemble it, & put it in an enclosure.

It does work with a very good software system, from EFI Analytics.

I've built the Speeduino, & have had it running on the bench, with the software, but not fitted it to my daily drive as yet.

Cheers Banjo

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