Jump to content

Toyota 3K engine problem


Papa

Recommended Posts

This is NOT my car, l am trying to help another ! He was stopped & when he tried to start it , the engine was locked a mechanic put a wrench on the crankshaft nut & shook the engine. He then drove it slowly home (he lives on my property) l listened to the engine & the exhaust , sounded good , he then reved the engine a little bit & when he backed of the gas you could hear a slapping noise. 

I have taken plugs out, the timing chain cover & oil pan & valve cover off , inspected all the bearings , found no problem, no spun bearings, but in need of replacement, valves all work good, need adj . When turning by hand it seems to have hard places (in fact one time l had to use a stap wrench on the pulley ). When it breaks over the hard spot it almost turns by itself , l have noticed the the chain slackens on the right hand keeper & then slaps it when you turn more . Removed the spring loaded plunger & all looks good ! 

Anyone any ideas, PLEASE help ! I also now need bolt Tqs & tapper clearances / sequence etc! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Members dont see this ad

Even if the slapping noise was piston slap, it wouldn't lock the motor up.  

Tell us more about when it was locked up.  Was it running fine up until then? 

Did it have oil and water and wasn't over-heated?

The only reason I can think of for locking up if it wasn't seized would be a foreign body in a cylinder. That may not explain the hard spots when you turn it over.

 

I figure the next step is to take the head off and look inside.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Papa,

              Welcome aboard !   Hope we can assist.  As you have the sump off, I'm assuming the engine is still in the car.  My best guess, is that the issue is associated with the camshaft, or something that drives off it, based on what you have told us, that you have discovered already.

I suggest removing the timing chain, by removing the camshaft sprocket.  Then replace the sprocket, (without chain) & turn the camshaft over by hand, & see if there is any obstruction or jamming.

If there is, then remove the dizzy, & see if that makes any difference.  If not, then remove the oil pump.  My guess is it might be a broken oil pump.

Last resort, if the oil pump removal does not indicate the fault; is to remove the rocker gear, & try turning the camshaft again by hand.  With no dizzy, oil pump, or valve springs to compress, it should be quite free to turn.

P.S.  Also make sure the pin in the front of the camshaft, for the camshaft sprocket, has not sheared.   Has been known to shear, in K series motors.

Please let us know what you find. 

Cheers Banjo 

              

Edited by Banjo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I talked to the man this morning & he said the motor did not get hot , but when climbing the hill out of the valley, it did hesitate a couple times . He had taken his wife to a place & had to wait about an hr . When he tried to re-start , is when the problem manifested . After the mechanic broke it free he drove it home (slowly) . I listened with the hood open & at the tail pipe , did not detect any unusual sounds . Except for that small slap in the front of the engine . The only time l ever heard piston slap was in the early 1950s in a 40s model Ford or maybe it was in a 36 or 37 model ,, so l don't remember the particulars of the sound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Banjo ! Now breakfast is done. I don’t know what you mean (the dizzy) . I have removed the oil pump , put a flat tip screwdriver bit in my battery drill & rotated the oil pump full speed both forward & backward, no problem , pulled the distributer out , gear & pin looked good , no bad teeth , or odd wear marks !    Car 1979 Toyota Corolla 

With #1 piston @ tdc , checking valve clearance (by hand) l can barely feel any movement at #1&#3 intake ,”0” any place else ! Cranking the motor over all valves seem to be operating properly ! I will check  the cam gear & key, but it would take a ton of force to break that key ! Before l would pull the head l would like to adj the valves properly 

I am wondering could it be ,, #1 ,that there is not enough oil press to keep the oil pressurized/spring assisted cam chain tensioner engaged sufficiently to not allow the chain to slap up against the guide on the opposite side?? , , #2 That when he tried to start the car , the bendex gear did not properly engage the ring gear & jammed ? 

One / Two big problems l speak only English,,,,, he only Spanish! My fault , I am in Costa Rica 

Revelation . The cam gear has a pin not a key ,,sorry my mistake . Rotating the cam buy hand with a wrench on the nut , watching the valve springs all the tension for each spring seemed the same & when it popped over center it would literally rotate itself a little bit 

Edited by Papa
Link to comment
Share on other sites

" Before l would pull the head l would like to adj the valves properly  "

Yes, it sounds like they definitely need doing. 

The chains have been known to get so slack they wear through the timing chain cover, yet the motor still runs. You can often hear them rattle at startup.

The Bendix gear may have jammed. Has it happened before where it just goes "click" but doesn't engage?

Yeah, the cam should jump forward when you turn it past a lobe without a chain, so its not jamming on the cam.

 

Handy data is here-

http://www.rollaclub.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

 

Put it all back together, set points and timing, check & clean spark plugs after the tappets and run it. Make sure he carries a spanner to fit the pulley bolt to do just what the mechanic did!

Edited by altezzaclub
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glad I was wrong with my guess about the fault being "camshaft" related.

The timing chain tensioner is oil pressure fed, so I'm guessing again, that the engine is pretty old & tired. If I ever have the timing chain cover off an old K engine, I usually replace the tensioner piston/rubbing block.  However, that will not make much, if any difference, if the oil pressure is already low. I would suggest that you clean the wire strainer on the bottom of the oil pump with a wire brush, before reinstalling, to ensure there is no impedance to oil intake flow.  Sounds like it might be time to fill the engine up, with a higher viscosity oil, to help improve the oil pressure a bit.

When you do get the engine running, if you have access to an oil pressure guage, I would test it, at the point below the oil filter, where the oil pressure switch is sited.  That reading might tell you a lot about the engine condition, & bearing clearances, when cold, & after it heats up.

Let us know what you find.

Cheers  Banjo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One more thing- if the tappets are that bad there's a good chance the owner doesn't know the oil filter must have a none-return valve in it.  The Girls KE70 didn't when we bought it, and every morning it would rattle the bearings while the upside-down oil filter filled up. Eventually i had the motor out for head mods and I replaced the bearings, even though the rest of the motor was fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good point !  There is a oil filter suitable for the K series engine that is used by Mercedes Benz. It's identical, except it has all the valves in it, to stop oil draining, through the bearings, when the engine is cooling down.  I've got one on my 4KU. Works a treat.

It has the numbers 423 in it's P/N off memory.  I'll go take a look at it, & confirm, & see if I can find the Mercedes number, so you could cross reference it with oil filter suppliers you have there in Costa Rica.

My research shows this oil filter, suitable for your friend's 3K engine, was fitted to Mercedes Benz models 260, 260E, 180E, 190E, 220E, 230E, & 300E. 

Here is the Australian made one I use.   https://rycofilters.com.au/catalogue/part/index/part/Z423

There was a lively discussion about this topic several years ago here on Rollaclub.

https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/73606-addressing-low-oil-pressure/?tab=comments#comment-711458

Cheers Banjo 

Edited by Banjo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks guys for the input ! I took the starter off and checked it out, hooked it up electrically, jumped the key contact several times, & functioned flawlessly ! He has another motor (partly disassembled) so I took the timing chain off it & compared it to this one , it is a better one so I used it . Too check  a chain , lay them out  , & side flex them to see how much they bend sideways . _-_- So now I need to adj the valve rockers, & I need instructions on HOW , & the clearances ! Then will come the compression test ! . IS there any way l could check & compare the oil pumps since l have “2” of them ??

I just looked at that oil filter site - RYCO & on the efficiency line if that #35 is microns that is a horrible filter , it should be less than 1/2 that ! Go to -goodoil4u.com - click on buy amsoil , then corporate web site and explore !

Edited by Papa
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Papa,

Quote

IS there any way l could check & compare the oil pumps since l have “2” of them ??

As you have both oil pumps out, take off the bottom pickup plates on each, & check & compare clearances between the tips of the "star" rotors & the casing around them.  Off memory the base plate wears badly, so pick & use the one with the least indent wear.

 2005_1029Image0001.JPG.d9d59c13f688c0b51b0f1355378baeac.JPG

2005_1029Image0004.JPG.faaae955286d66454ee44961ba76e79a.JPG

2005_1029Image0008.JPG.cd6a6c28d6e44a1540ed65e52b1d8ccc.JPG

2005_1029Image0011.JPG.1fd9898b9f567b11ae22fae04be5d40c.JPG

The pressure bypass spring loaded valve in the oil pump, can be packed, to increase spring pressure, & therefore pressure at which the bypass opens.  Someone on this forum here, has previously described what thickness is required.  Think it was 3mm off hand, but don't quote me.

Unfortunately, the oil pumps are throwaway, once they wear out.  Plenty available on-line, & pretty cheap here in our part of the world. If I am rebuilding an engine's bottom end, a new oil pump is essential, but I guess in this case, this very old engine hardly demands it, unless, the oil pump turns out to be the root cause of this engines issues.

Cheers Banjo

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4K manual says tappet gaps 5thou & 9thou cold, or 8 & 12 hot.  I find it odd that the hot gap is smaller while the pushrods and valves expand in length and should take up the gap, yet hot gap is larger. They put #1 on TDC firing stroke and adjust 1,2,3, & 5.  Then rotate the motor 360deg & set 4,6,7,& 8.

Send me your email address in a PM and I will send you the 4K manual.

 

 

Lots of discussion here-

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uber member Thanks for the offer of the 4K manual , but this is a -3K- engine , so what good would that manual do me ?  As for that 9 rule , l can not follow that at all, to me that’s a bunch of gooblygook 

Your discussion about the 0.005 & 0.009 cold verses 12&16 hot , YES the expanding metal as it got hot would tend to close the -gap- , so it does appear like the 12&16 should be the cold , confusing ! 

However l do need the Tq on “1”the rod cap nuts, & “2”main bearing bolts,”3” head bolts, “4” exhaust/intake bolts

thanks Banjo for the advice I will do that !  you say check the clearance between the star rotor & surrounding casing , Do you know what the spec’s are ? I have them for a Cummins 390 , but l don’t think they would be the same for this engine  I don’t think that the problem is the bypass valve causing low oil press , looking at the bearings , there is copper starting to show.  I will know more after I get the valves adjusted & do a compression test . 

Edited by Papa
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The rule of nine means turning the motor to put one valve on maximum lift, which is easier to see as it lasts a short time because the nose of the cam sits on the follower for a very short time.  It doesn't matter which valve you start with, what ever is opening when you start. You set the tappet clearance on the valve that adds up to nine with the one you have on max open. 

So if you start with valve number 3 on max open, you set tappet number six.  Then you turn the motor until another valve is at max open and set the tappet that is adding up to nine with that valve and so on. I don't know what the actual order is, I've only used rule of nine a couple of times. But for the #1 valve being open you set #8, for #2 valve being open you set #7 etc

As for 3K and 4K, imagine you're the chief engineer at Toyota and the boss says "we have a bigger Corolla coming out, so we need a motor that's 100cc bigger, and I want it as cheap as possible.."   What would you do?  Grab a clean sheet of paper?  I reckon the chief engineer walks down the 3K parts bins and picks out everything except the crank, which he makes to a 73mm stroke instead of the 66mm.  Why change anything else?

For the 4K-

Oil pump rotor tip clearance 0.002-0.006.  max 0.008"

Drive rotor to cover 0.001-0.004 max 0.006"

Outer rotor to pump body 0.004-0.006 max 0.008"

Here's a handy page from the manual...

4K engine specs.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK Papa,

                  Glad to be of assistance.  I have a "yellow bible", Toyota Factory manual in front of me, which covers all the K series engines, from 2K to 5KC.  The valve clearances & torque settings are the same for all K Series engines, except the 5K & 5KC.

The 4K manual Altezzaclub has offered you, will cover the info you need for the 3K.

 

Oil Pump:

Tip Clearance:   STD   0.0016" - 0.0063"   LIMIT:   0.008"

Side Clearance:  STD  0.0012" - 0.0035"   LIMIT:  0.0059"

Body Clearance:  STD 0.0039" - 0.0063"  LIMIT  0.008"

___________________________________________________________

Torques:

1:  Rod Caps:  29-37 ft/lbs

2: Main Bearings:  40-47 ft/lbs

3: Head Bolts:   40-47 ft/lbs

4: Exhaust Manifold:  15-21 ft/lbs

_____________________________________________________________

Valve Clearances:

HOT:   Inlet:  0.008"    Exhaust:  0.012"

COLD:   Inlet:  0.005"    Exhaust:  0.009"

___________________________________________________________

Quote

looking at the bearings , there is copper starting to show.

That means, nearly all the white metal has been worn away.  If they are standard ones (not oversize), & you can't obtain new ones, then I would use the best bearings shells from both motors.

If they are really worn, & you still have to use them, you could use the "olde mechanics trick", of putting one or more Tally-Ho tabacco papers, under the slipper bearing, to lift them up.

This usually requires filing the ends of the bearing slippers slightly, so has to be done carefully.  I've never done it myself, but remember in my youth, watching my then girlfriends Dad carry this procedure out, on a very old flat head straight 8 cylinder Packard engine.  It took him all day !

Give us a yell, if there is any other info you need.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

Edited by Banjo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...