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Want to chuck a 4age in a ke38


LucaKE

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Hey everyone!

As the title suggests, I am looking to engine swap my current 4k K40  in my ke38 with a 4age T50.

I have gone back and forth with myself if I should just build a hot 4k, or go 4age, but I have come to the conclusion that only a 4age is the only solution that will make me happy with the build.

That being said, I am looking to find some either ke55/ke38 4a swap builds that give, in detail, the parts required to undertake this swap (could not find any on here). Or alternately, if anyone has a big list of the things needed and recommended. Money really isn't a problem here, as I want to do this right.

Thank you legends!

Luca

P.S. Pic of corolla with some fresh paint for size.

IMG_1064.thumb.jpg.43097272ea38c389382847f016148f9c.jpg

Edited by LucaKE
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Sounds good, but no doubt difficult!  First, go talk to a couple of engineers and find out how much they will charge to certify it, and what they want you to do.  Some people have paid thousands and had to change suspension and brakes, my guy in Sydney was un-worried and charged $800 or so for the motor and gearbox conversion only.

You'll need a hydraulic clutch, which means a different pedal box to make it work. If you're lucky an AE71 one will do, or just manufacture the clutch part onto your current one. Engine and gearbox mounts for sure, and the cross-member for a 4K has the sump curve at the wrong end, so an AE71 cross-member too.

The gear-lever will be in the wrong place, but I figure you'll survive.  The radiator hoses also, but I ran a length of galv water pipe under the fan to get both rad hoses on the driver's side. The stock rad ran fine but took a few minutes to cool back down after a solid run up a hill in the summer, so I eventually bought an alloy one. That has massive over-capacity for a 4AGE. Get an electric fan set up too.

If you get a FWD motor you'll need to change the water housing setup at the firewall end and fit in a remote thermostat.

The ECU had me puzzled for a week, but in the end its very straight-forward. You'll need a plug off the ECU of an early Camry or similar as the AE86 has a chassis wiring plug for the ECU that your car (and KE70s) don't have.  That supplies ign power and permanent power. You can get a CORE relay from a newer car or just use relays to make the pumps stop when the motor does, ie in the event of a crash with ignition still on. Buy a few rolls of wire in different colours and some micro-labels, don't make a birds-nest mess like I did!  One day when I have time...

New driveshaft obviously, I had Knox in Melb do mine after I couldn't get rid of a vibration. I changed to a Jap-style banjo diff from a Celica too.

You'll need a RWD exhaust manifold, depending on the motor and how much exhaust they sell you. I chopped up a VL Commo one, rather than buy a set of extractors for $500 odd. Fit a catalytic converter too, if you want it road-legal.

Your fuel tank is under the boot floor. Fit an in-tank lift pump that feeds a little surge tank. Take the outlet from the surge tank to the high-pressure injection pump. See if you can get both of them under the floor at the back inside a mudguard, or put the surge and main pump in the engine bay like I did. You don't need a giant shiny 1L surge tank that won't fit anywhere except in the boot of a drift car!  Remember any flexible line in the feed system has to take high pressure, about 50psi.

Find an air-box and filter at the wrecker that will fit in the engine bay. I wouldn't buy a wire mesh K&N if I were you, easy, but not a good filter. We've just tossed one off the EVo3 rally car as it had dust inside it.

My conversion starts here-

and some more here-

..and I expect you're a bit past reading-

 

Edited by altezzaclub
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On 7/31/2021 at 10:24 AM, altezzaclub said:

Sounds good, but no doubt difficult!  First, go talk to a couple of engineers and find out how much they will charge to certify it, and what they want you to do.  Some people have paid thousands and had to change suspension and brakes, my guy in Sydney was un-worried and charged $800 or so for the motor and gearbox conversion only.

You'll need a hydraulic clutch, which means a different pedal box to make it work. If you're lucky an AE71 one will do, or just manufacture the clutch part onto your current one. Engine and gearbox mounts for sure, and the cross-member for a 4K has the sump curve at the wrong end, so an AE71 cross-member too.

The gear-lever will be in the wrong place, but I figure you'll survive.  The radiator hoses also, but I ran a length of galv water pipe under the fan to get both rad hoses on the driver's side. The stock rad ran fine but took a few minutes to cool back down after a solid run up a hill in the summer, so I eventually bought an alloy one. That has massive over-capacity for a 4AGE. Get an electric fan set up too.

If you get a FWD motor you'll need to change the water housing setup at the firewall end and fit in a remote thermostat.

The ECU had me puzzled for a week, but in the end its very straight-forward. You'll need a plug off the ECU of an early Camry or similar as the AE86 has a chassis wiring plug for the ECU that your car (and KE70s) don't have.  That supplies ign power and permanent power. You can get a CORE relay from a newer car or just use relays to make the pumps stop when the motor does, ie in the event of a crash with ignition still on. Buy a few rolls of wire in different colours and some micro-labels, don't make a birds-nest mess like I did!  One day when I have time...

New driveshaft obviously, I had Knox in Melb do mine after I couldn't get rid of a vibration. I changed to a Jap-style banjo diff from a Celica too.

You'll need a RWD exhaust manifold, depending on the motor and how much exhaust they sell you. I chopped up a VL Commo one, rather than buy a set of extractors for $500 odd. Fit a catalytic converter too, if you want it road-legal.

Your fuel tank is under the boot floor. Fit an in-tank lift pump that feeds a little surge tank. Take the outlet from the surge tank to the high-pressure injection pump. See if you can get both of them under the floor at the back inside a mudguard, or put the surge and main pump in the engine bay like I did. You don't need a giant shiny 1L surge tank that won't fit anywhere except in the boot of a drift car!  Remember any flexible line in the feed system has to take high pressure, about 50psi.

Find an air-box and filter at the wrecker that will fit in the engine bay. I wouldn't buy a wire mesh K&N if I were you, easy, but not a good filter. We've just tossed one off the EVo3 rally car as it had dust inside it.

My conversion starts here-

and some more here-

..and I expect you're a bit past reading-

 

Mate, you are an absolute gem. I really appreciate the levels of information that you have given me! I now know the direction to take this project in.

 

Instead of going EFI powered, I am looking at going to for ITBS, is there any other bits of knowledge that I should know going for that setup?

 

Also, is your inbox open for more questions down the line?

 

Cheers mate!

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ITB's means an aftermarket ECU, they are also EFI.  The mechanical side is easy.  Wiring it neatly and making it run properly is the hard bit, as well as sourcing the various parts you need.  If you want things right now, you will pay through the nose for things.  

I've lost count of the number of 90% complete projects i've seen for sale over the years - "just needs wiring".

Be realistic with yourself.  If you can manage that yourself, or are prepared to pay to have it done properly (not some backyard job), then go for it.  If not, stick with a K motor.

And understand there are a number of different 4AGE's out there, from the original 16 valve TVIS engines through to 20 valve black tops with ITB's as standard.

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I took "ITBS" to mean carbies, as he said "instead of going EFI powered". i assume dellortos simliar. 

are you in QLD? perhaps i could assist wtih your wiring woes. i have made a new loom for my aftermarket ecu and spent the last few years learning how to tune it on my e30. if you can jump to a proper ecu straight away, and willing to wire it properly first time around, it will be a significant improvement to your engine.  (assuming you still go the quad throttle route). the ability to make minor changes is fantastic, but also aftermarket ecu is the best diagnosis tool you can get. no more guessing:)

carbies are cool, but A) i dont belive will actually be legal in QLD (technically speaking - but youd probably never get picked up), B) A well tuned ecu on throttles will be significantly better than carbies any day. but you wont get it well tuned by sending it to a tuner for a few hrs. it takes days and weeks of tuning to get the cold start, idle up enrichment etc all tuned in properly. im years in and i still make minor adjustments. I am a little fussy though...

You definitely need to determine which 4age you will be using as that will determine your requirements. 16V bigport, 16V small port and 20V are your 3 choices. 20V being the "newest" and by new i mean 25years old...20V also being the most difficult to to RWD but with the products available (sam Q etc) i think you can buy everything you need somewhat off the shelf. 20V is basically mandatory to go aftermarket ecu as the dizzy hangs out the back of the engine. 

What gearbox you gionna use? t50 5 speed (ae86, AE71) would have to be rare as hens teeth by now. can you still get them? 

If money is no object, have you considered a honda K24 strapped to a mazda rx8 gearbox? 😉 or you give me some of your money and ill put the k24 in my e30

Edited by ke70dave
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Well, as far as I know you can't buy the layshaft bearings for a K40 or K50, so you just can't rebuild them now. That's them finished unless you can grind the shaft down to fit some other bearing. Then T50s will be next, some shortage of parts in a few years means we will be looking at J160s to use.  Really, the whole 4AGE/T50 is 40years old and we need some current-ish lightweight revvy 1.6 or 2L motor that is still useable in RWD and has gearboxes to suit.

The Hondas are definitely a start, the F20 from the S2000 and the newer K motors if they can go RWD.  Mazda MX5 motors and gearboxes run right up to now, and the BMW N20 pulls 240bhp from 1.6L in RWD. They will all take as much work as Littleredspirit put into the 2AZFE, just in different areas, but we need something to give us a decade of running into the future.

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if you have a look around at all the available parts for RWD k24/k20 convesions its really quite amazing. most of them are US based, but theyve basically thought of everything. RWD intake manifolds off the shelf, conversion kits to BMW 6 speeds or rx8, and i think some ford gearbox, tremec also. 

And the k24 is from a honda accord euro. $1000 or so from a ausi wreckers any day of the week. 

You do have to pay to play though, heres some examples. 

https://www.drifthq.com/products/pmc-motorsport-adapter-kit-honda-k-k20-k24-mazda-rx8

https://kpower.industries/products/kmiata-rwd-intake-manifold

The BMW N20 is an interesting proposition. I was looking at that for my e30 at some stage but they have some crazy electronics in those cars so making the oem ecu work in another platform i don't believe has been accomplished (security complexities). Not sure it could be run on aftermarket ecu either - easily. double vanos (variable timing on both cams) , variable lift intake cam  (neat setup that uses an electric motor to drive some variable length rocker arms) AND direct injection. Complex beast. also had some some serious issues with cams wearing prematurely i think. updated in 2015 or so. 

 

 

Edited by ke70dave
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Looks like old mate lives in QLD so all that engineer stuff doesn't apply.  Just get a mod plate and follow adrs when you build it, and you'll be fine.  Thankfully QLD motor trades are deregulated and there's even 6 shires where you dont ever require a roadworthy.  My mod plate for 2az86 was about 200 bucks, and it covered engine, suspension and diff, cage and seats.

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