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5K with no oil pressure!


LucaKE

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Hello guys!

It has been a minute since my last update, lots of things have happened!

I was sick for a week and wasn't able to progress on the car. Got the new cap, fitted it and played around with the timing. It still didn't have any spark at this point. I read somewhere that when the dizzy timing is so off, that the spark can happen between the "points" on the cap and show the symptoms of no spark.

So I set the engine to TDC and played around with the timing, and wouldnt you know it, look what happened.

 

https://imgur.com/gallery/yqYHoil

 

I have not set the timing or idle properly yet (or an exhaust for that matter) so it may seem off.

 

I am also wondering where these connections go? I couldn't remember where the ground grounds and where the other connection goes. Also, how can you tell if the water pump is working?

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Cheers, Luca

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Hi Luca,

             The little carbon bush that is "spring loaded" in the inside centre/to of the dissy cap, is quite often the problem.  The fine spring behind the carbon rubbing bush actually passes the HV current, & can corrode to become very thin, then break..

However, I have had a centre bush fairly recently; collapse altogether, & the engine ran perfectly.  Probably because I was using a Hi Volts output coil, which allowed the spark to jump the large gap.  Unless the four (4) posts in the dissy cap, are very, very corroded, such that the gap between rotor tip, & 1, 3., 4, & 2 posts in the cap, is very large, it can sometime make the engine run better.  The spark will often jump a bigger gap, in "free outside air"; than at the spark plug tip, under compression in the cylinder. This technique was used regularly by racers, in the old days, to increase the HV supplied to the spark plug.

That black lead with a yellow strip, is an engine earth or ground cable. You''ll probably find the other end is connected to the engine block, towards the rear.  The bit you show in your hand goes to the head and/or rocker cover.

Have you had the dissy out ?  if so it maybe out a little. There are heaps of instructions on the forum, regarding how to refit the dissy, & get the timing right.

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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32 minutes ago, Banjo said:

Hi Luca,

             The little carbon bush that is "spring loaded" in the inside centre/to of the dissy cap, is quite often the problem.  The fine spring behind the carbon rubbing bush actually passes the HV current, & can corrode to become very thin, then break..

However, I have had a centre bush fairly recently; collapse altogether, & the engine ran perfectly.  Probably because I was using a Hi Volts output coil, which allowed the spark to jump the large gap.  Unless the four (4) posts in the dissy cap, are very, very corroded, such that the gap between rotor tip, & 1, 3., 4, & 2 posts in the cap, is very large, it can sometime make the engine run better.  The spark will often jump a bigger gap, in "free outside air"; than at the spark plug tip, under compression in the cylinder. This technique was used regularly by racers, in the old days, to increase the HV supplied to the spark plug.

Cheers Banjo

Interesting, I did not know that!

Yes, the 4 posts in the old cap were very, very corroded. Sanding the posts with sandpaper didn't reveal any metal.

Now that the car runs, I'm very keen to start all the smaller items on my checklist.

Did you have any thoughts on the two questions in the post above?

Thanks Banjo!

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I just added one answer to my previous post.  The plug in your hand I don't instantly recognise.  Does the lead on which this plug is, go back into the main wiring harness ?   Is your KE38 an auto or manual ?  I listened to your video,  &  although it doesn't appear to have all the exhaust system connected, as yet; if the timing is out, it is not very much.   Do you happen to have a timing light to check it dynamically ?

Cheers Banjo 

Edited by Banjo
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Well done!  The way to set timing is to-

Get #1 cyl to TDC by watching the rockers.

Put the crank back to 10deg before TDC. Go back to 20 or 30deg before, then forward to 10deg which takes up the chain slack.

Turn the ignition on and slowly rotate the dizzy against the direction of the rotor travel then forwards until it sparks. You want the points just opening, and the rotor pointing to #1. If the plug leads don't agree, swap them around.

That will give you the coil firing about 10deg BTDC and the car will run fine.  Tweak it a bit with a timing light when you have it running.

---------

The plug I don't recognise either, it looks far too modern for an old Corolla.

Take  a multimeter and check the resistance between the motor & the chassis, the alty and the chassis and the chassis to battery negative. They should all be under 5ohms.

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1 hour ago, Banjo said:

I just added one answer to my previous post.  The plug in your hand I don't instantly recognise.  Does the lead on which this plug is, go back into the main wiring harness ?   Is your KE38 an auto or manual ?  I listened to your video,  &  although it doesn't appear to have all the exhaust system connected, as yet; if the timing is out, it is not very much.   Do you happen to have a timing light to check it dynamically ?

Cheers Banjo 

Hmm. My car is a factory manual, so its definately not any funny auto nonsense. From memory it does go back into the main wiring harness into the dash. I will go investigate this weekend.

I don't have a timing light on me, but its on the list of things to borrow from a friend.

1 hour ago, altezzaclub said:

Well done!  The way to set timing is to-

Get #1 cyl to TDC by watching the rockers.

Put the crank back to 10deg before TDC. Go back to 20 or 30deg before, then forward to 10deg which takes up the chain slack.

Turn the ignition on and slowly rotate the dizzy against the direction of the rotor travel then forwards until it sparks. You want the points just opening, and the rotor pointing to #1. If the plug leads don't agree, swap them around.

That will give you the coil firing about 10deg BTDC and the car will run fine.  Tweak it a bit with a timing light when you have it running.

---------

The plug I don't recognise either, it looks far too modern for an old Corolla.

Take  a multimeter and check the resistance between the motor & the chassis, the alty and the chassis and the chassis to battery negative. They should all be under 5ohms.

Thanks for the timing tips! I will use those.

Yeah, that connection puzzled me as well. I will investigate further.

 

Cheers for all your help guys!

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I don't have a timing light on me, but its on the list of things to borrow from a friend.

A timing light is one of the most useful tools you can have, besides a 10, 12, 13, & 14mm combination ring & open ended spanners; & a hammer as well.  Don't need a fancy one, where you can dial in degree delays itc.  Just a plain no frills one. It tells you dynamically; more than whether the timing is correct.  It also tells you whether the auto advance & retard mechanism, in your dizzy is working or not.  Would not be without one.

image.png.78713628968a625e3731b705092049bd.png

 

ebay is your friend there !  $ 30+  approx.

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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  • 2 months later...
Hello again!
 
It has been a few weeks, I spent the last twoish months chasing down clutch related issues with the car and taking some time off. Back at it with some timing issues!
 
The engine runs well however, when using a timing light, it indicates that the car is 60 degrees out of time. Idles fine, but when you give it some revs, it backfires slightly out the carbs sometimes. Try to drive it and give it load, and it will just stall out. The revs also hang, but there aren't any intake leaks. Checked that with some carby cleaner
 
Tried to adjust the timing, by rotating the distributor, to get it to 8 degrees and when doing so, it slows and begins to stall around 50-40 degrees.
 
What I have done:
firing order is 1342.
points gap is around 0.4mm
checked cyl #1 is firing via the inlet rocker
turned the crank to 10 degrees BTDC on the cam cover
turned ignition on, moved the dizzy back and forth so that the points just spark
where ever the points are sparking, set that to cyl #1
checked firing order again.
 
Things to note: I have not properly tuned my carbs. The 5k is running the stock 4k dizzy and coil. New cap, leads and NGK BP5EY plugs.
What am I missing here?
 
Kind regards
Edited by LucaKE
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Hi Luca,

              The engine cannot be running well, but have timing out by 60 degrees, as you advise.  What sort of timing light are you using.  Is it a simple one, or one of those where you can adjust the reading forwards or backwards until it lines up with TDC, whereupon , you read then advance off the timing light ? When you "checked cyl #1 is firing via the inlet rocker", was the timing mark on the crankshaft pulley lining up with the zero timing mark on the timing chain cover ?

Assuming that is alright, you could well have the distributor out one or two teeth when it was inserted, into the block. If the dizzy advances automatically, & the rotor arc does not result in the rotor lining up with the spark plug lead post for that cylinder, then all sorts of things can happen.

This is an engine I believe that has been rebuilt, or at least disembled & reassembled.  If you are convinced that the crankshaft pulley is installed with the key in the keyway, & with no: 1 cylinder definitely at TDC, then you can be assured at the timing chain & camshaft sprocket have been fitted correctly & aligned, during reassembly.

Other things to look for, are the carbon block & it's tiny spring, in the inside top centre of the dizzy cap. Well known intermittent failure point, once load or revs are increased.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Banjo said:

Hi Luca,

              The engine cannot be running well, but have timing out by 60 degrees, as you advise.  What sort of timing light are you using.  Is it a simple one, or one of those where you can adjust the reading forwards or backwards until it lines up with TDC, whereupon , you read then advance off the timing light ? When you "checked cyl #1 is firing via the inlet rocker", was the timing mark on the crankshaft pulley lining up with the zero timing mark on the timing chain cover ?

Assuming that is alright, you could well have the distributor out one or two teeth when it was inserted, into the block. If the dizzy advances automatically, & the rotor arc does not result in the rotor lining up with the spark plug lead post for that cylinder, then all sorts of things can happen.

This is an engine I believe that has been rebuilt, or at least disembled & reassembled.  If you are convinced that the crankshaft pulley is installed with the key in the keyway, & with no: 1 cylinder definitely at TDC, then you can be assured at the timing chain & camshaft sprocket have been fitted correctly & aligned, during reassembly.

Other things to look for, are the carbon block & it's tiny spring, in the inside top centre of the dizzy cap. Well known intermittent failure point, once load or revs are increased.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

 

Hi Banjo! Hope everything is well.

Here is a video of the engine at 60 degrees as per my timing light. https://imgur.com/gallery/tDvcryB

I believe my timing light is one where I can advance the timing. Attached is some of the spec sheet. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/193986903358

When the engine was on the firing stroke of cyl #1, the inlet retracted fully a 1/4 of the pulley diameter before hitting TDC, which I believe is normal. It lined up perfectly on the timing chain cover.

How would I go about moving the distributor a few teeth back? Unsure what that would look like.

When the engine was disassembled, I made sure that the timing chain and all its bits were in the correct position. Positive thats all good there thank goodness!

I also do have a new dizzy cap, would you think that would fail?

 

I should also mention, that the engine does rev hang, and takes a few seconds to return to idle from 3000 rpm. Seems to be no intake leaks, tested with a can of carb cleaner

 

Kind regards

29fbfaba69e76e438162f061106f080c.jpg

Edited by LucaKE
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The timing light cannot advance or retard the timing on your engine.  That is a physical function, that can only be accomplished by the distributor advance/retard mechanisms; or if you unclamp the dizzy, & rotate it either clockwise or anticlockwise.

Those timing lights, are designed such, that you turn the knob, at idle, until the  crankshaft pulley line lines up with the zero/TDC mark on the timing chain cover.  The readout on the fancy timing light will then be the advance or retard degrees at idle. Then increase the revs, & the flash should occur, such that the crankshaft pulley timing mark, is strobing earlier/advanced.  If your dizzy is out, it is probably only 1 tooth. There are lots of posts on Rollaclub, describing how to move the dissy position, one tooth backwards or forward.  It is a bit tricky, as the dizzy rotates slightly, as it is lowered into place.  The trick is to ensure the rotor button, is in the correct place & alignment, & doesn't run out of arc. The engine will run, one tooth off; but not well.  Everything else being perfect, this is the most critical setting to get the timing right.

I technique I use is to take the dizzy cap off, & place 4 marks around the edge of the dizzy alloy edge, with whiteout, right opposite each spark plug lead post.  Then take all four spark plugs out, & turn the engine over by hand, to ensure the "arc of the rotor", is aligned on it's trailing edge, with the white mark/s, at about 10-12 degrees before TDC.

Get that right, & you will be sweet.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

 

Edited by Banjo
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1 hour ago, Banjo said:

The timing light cannot advance or retard the timing on your engine.  That is a physical function, that can only be accomplished by the distributor advance/retard mechanisms; or if you unclamp the dizzy, & rotate it either clockwise or anticlockwise.

Those timing lights, are designed such, that you turn the knob, at idle, until the  crankshaft pulley line lines up with the zero/TDC mark on the timing chain cover.  The readout on the fancy timing light will then be the advance or retard degrees at idle. Then increase the revs, & the flash should occur, such that the crankshaft pulley timing mark, is strobing earlier/advanced.  If your dizzy is out, it is probably only 1 tooth. There are lots of posts on Rollaclub, describing how to move the dissy position, one tooth backwards or forward.  It is a bit tricky, as the dizzy rotates slightly, as it is lowered into place.  The trick is to ensure the rotor button, is in the correct place & alignment, & doesn't run out of arc. The engine will run, one tooth off; but not well.  Everything else being perfect, this is the most critical setting to get the timing right.

I technique I use is to take the dizzy cap off, & place 4 marks around the edge of the dizzy alloy edge, with whiteout, right opposite each spark plug lead post.  Then take all four spark plugs out, & turn the engine over by hand, to ensure the "arc of the rotor", is aligned on it's trailing edge, with the white mark/s, at about 10-12 degrees before TDC.

Get that right, & you will be sweet.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

 

I have a strong suspicion that this will fix the problems I am having. Thanks Banjo, I will update you on the happenings next!

Edited by LucaKE
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It sounds like there is a manifold leak somewhere.

Get some plastic tube about 5mm diam by 400mm long and put one end to your ear while listening to each of the carb throats. They should all sound the same. If they do, move the hose around the inlet & exhaust manifolds gaskets, the head and the exhaust junction & where the carbs go onto the manifold. You will hear a leak very easily.

If the carb throats don't sound the same, it will be the idle screws that need matching and the carbs themselves. The carbs have an adjustment on the linkage between them to open one and close the other. The idle screw is on each throat.

Before you do that, take the linkage off between the carbs and listen to each one shut. The throttle plates should make a distinct clear 'click' as they close, if they don't they are sticking open.

It will never run right without the carbs being balanced.

"When the engine was on the firing stroke of cyl #1, the inlet retracted fully a 1/4 of the pulley diameter before hitting TDC, which I believe is normal. It lined up perfectly on the timing chain cover. "

Yes, I would expect that too. That last 90deg give you the compression.

-The vacuum advance hose is still on, so the manifold is pulling the timing too advanced. Always check timing with no vac advance, just plug the tube. After you have 10deg BTDC you put the tube back on and lower the idle speed to something nice.

-If you mistook the direction the dizzy was turning and had the spark on the wrong side of the rotor shoulder it could be quite far out, although I'm talking 20deg, not 60! I've done that before.

 

Hmm.. what is the manifold port in this picture for?? Is it open to the engine? A big hole like that will stop it running too.

1263075145_Manifoldport.jpg.6545404dbe76527d8cb3858757c68cdc.jpg

 

Let us know how it goes.

 

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52 minutes ago, altezzaclub said:

It sounds like there is a manifold leak somewhere.

Get some plastic tube about 5mm diam by 400mm long and put one end to your ear while listening to each of the carb throats. They should all sound the same. If they do, move the hose around the inlet & exhaust manifolds gaskets, the head and the exhaust junction & where the carbs go onto the manifold. You will hear a leak very easily.

If the carb throats don't sound the same, it will be the idle screws that need matching and the carbs themselves. The carbs have an adjustment on the linkage between them to open one and close the other. The idle screw is on each throat.

Before you do that, take the linkage off between the carbs and listen to each one shut. The throttle plates should make a distinct clear 'click' as they close, if they don't they are sticking open.

It will never run right without the carbs being balanced.

"When the engine was on the firing stroke of cyl #1, the inlet retracted fully a 1/4 of the pulley diameter before hitting TDC, which I believe is normal. It lined up perfectly on the timing chain cover. "

Yes, I would expect that too. That last 90deg give you the compression.

-The vacuum advance hose is still on, so the manifold is pulling the timing too advanced. Always check timing with no vac advance, just plug the tube. After you have 10deg BTDC you put the tube back on and lower the idle speed to something nice.

-If you mistook the direction the dizzy was turning and had the spark on the wrong side of the rotor shoulder it could be quite far out, although I'm talking 20deg, not 60! I've done that before.

 

Hmm.. what is the manifold port in this picture for?? Is it open to the engine? A big hole like that will stop it running too.

1263075145_Manifoldport.jpg.6545404dbe76527d8cb3858757c68cdc.jpg

 

Let us know how it goes.

 

There's defiantly a leak. There is a leak from where the exhaust manifold meets the head in the middle. Need to fix with a one piece head gasket and some studs, temporarily added a small amount of sealer. Checked to see if there was a leak around the carbs by spraying some carb cleaner and seeing if the revs increase. No dice, so should be fine there. I will check again with the tube however.

Unsure what you mean about the vacuum advance hose still being on? From my understanding, there isn't a vacuum advance connected. The weber carbs don't have a port for that and there isn't anything coming off the vac advance unit on the dizzy. Let me know if I'm missing anything! Attached is a pic of the engine bay, it is a month old or so, but basically the same as what I am running now:

The port on the intake is for the brake booster. It runs into the brake booster and the pcv valve.

 

Kind regards

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Edited by LucaKE
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