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5K with no oil pressure!


LucaKE

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Ah, no vac advance, I couldn't tell from the movie, it looked like a hose as the camera flashed over it. So that's another possible cause gone.

Put the PCV hose back on and see if that makes a difference. Then check the carb tuning.

I see you have an overhead linkage between the carb, so if you undo one arm it makes the carbs independent and you can check that each throttle closes cleanly with a 'click' and then do it up again.

 I assume the rotor turns the way you expect? Clockwise, so the 10deg timing as the points open is ahead of the rotor lobe. That puts the rubbing block where the red line is in this image as the points open, not on the other side of the peak.

1742158617_4Kdizzy.jpg.cb4be474083da7bcc777cdbfe26b095d.jpg

 

There is an unlikely chance that the springs & weights are broken, under the points plate. They sit at zero as you set the 10deg by hand, but as soon as you start the engine they fly out to max advance for the timing light.  However max advance should be about 40deg, then they hit the stop pin.  You could take the points plate out and check underneath that everything is clean, greased and working.

Good luck!

Edited by altezzaclub
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52 minutes ago, altezzaclub said:

Ah, no vac advance, I couldn't tell from the movie, it looked like a hose as the camera flashed over it. So that's another possible cause gone.

Put the PCV hose back on and see if that makes a difference. Then check the carb tuning.

I see you have an overhead linkage between the carb, so if you undo one arm it makes the carbs independent and you can check that each throttle closes cleanly with a 'click' and then do it up again.

 I assume the rotor turns the way you expect? Clockwise, so the 10deg timing as the points open is ahead of the rotor lobe. That puts the rubbing block where the red line is in this image as the points open, not on the other side of the peak.

1742158617_4Kdizzy.jpg.cb4be474083da7bcc777cdbfe26b095d.jpg

 

There is an unlikely chance that the springs & weights are broken, under the points plate. They sit at zero as you set the 10deg by hand, but as soon as you start the engine they fly out to max advance for the timing light.  However max advance should be about 40deg, then they hit the stop pin.  You could take the points plate out and check underneath that everything is clean, greased and working.

Good luck!

Ill check today if the carb butterflies click. Very sure that they do, but will check.

The rotor does turn clockwise, however, I think I have been setting the points on the beginning of the peak, and not on the ending like in the picture.

Ill check the weights again today. My current suspicion is that I need to move the distributor a few gears and recheck the points.

Regards

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Hang on, I'm confused about 'beginning' and 'end'.

So the rotor turns clockwise, and that would mean the rubbing block of the points touches that red line before it goes over the hump of lobe on the shaft. Is that what you see?

I'm expecting that you had the ignition on, the dizzy loose and turned it back and forth opening the points, then set it as you turned the distributor anti-clockwise and the points just opened, which is when they should spark. The rotor shaft turns clockwise so the distributor has to be turned anti-clockwise when setting it.

So long as the rubbing block ran over that red line before it reached the peak of the lobe. I can't find any pictures to illustrate it, the net is full of electronic 4K dizzies now, and Ebay stars getting famous...

Edited by altezzaclub
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Here we go-  The points rubbing block should look like this as you lock the dizzy on 10deg BTDC.

 

You can see the rotor turns clockwise as per the white arrow, so you have to set the timing by turning the dizzy body anti-clockwise as per the black arrow.  If you did it like this I would believe your work, rather than the timing light, so long as the weights are working correctly.

Points timing.jpg

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16 minutes ago, altezzaclub said:

Hang on, I'm confused about 'beginning' and 'end'.

So the rotor turns clockwise, and that would mean the rubbing block of the points touches that red line before it goes over the hump of lobe on the shaft. Is that what you see?

I'm expecting that you had the ignition on, the dizzy loose and turned it back and forth opening the points, then set it as you turned the distributor anti-clockwise and the points just opened, which is when they should spark. The rotor shaft turns clockwise so the distributor has to be turned anti-clockwise when setting it.

So long as the rubbing block ran over that red line before it reached the peak of the lobe. I can't find any pictures to illustrate it, the net is full of electronic 4K dizzies now, and Ebay stars getting famous...

Yes, I was timing it the opposite to what you have described. I was turning the dizzy clockwise instead of anti-clockwise. I think I have it timed correctly now, as the timing line is highlighted at 10 degrees on the pulley (even though it says like 90 degrees on the digital timing light readout) but I believe with my carbs the baseline idle that came with them is messed up. Checking it now

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Just now, altezzaclub said:

Here we go-  The points rubbing block should look like this as you lock the dizzy on 10deg BTDC.

 

You can see the rotor turns clockwise as per the white arrow, so you have to set the timing by turning the dizzy body anti-clockwise as per the black arrow.  If you did it like this I would believe your work, rather than the timing light, so long as the weights are working correctly.

Points timing.jpg

Yes, this is exactly what I have just done. Hurrah! I just need to tune the carbs now and I think we are away

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Hi Luca,

               I understand that this is a great learning curve for you, but understand, that an engine that is not "running correctly", can't necessarily be attributed to one thing, that is "not quite right".

More importantly; this is a 5K engine that has been rebuilt from scratch, with some mods, such as solid camshaft lifters; so everything is initially suspect.

Engines can run, but not well, due to one or more small aspects, being "just not quite right".

example:  Just imagine if when the camshaft sprocket was fitted; if the "location pin" was omitted, or the timing chain was out one link.

If I was in Noosa, & could come around to assist you, I'd start right at the beginning.

The first thing  I'd do was check the valve/cam timing.  This does not require stripping the engine, but may involve say taking the rocker cover off, to watch the valves in detail.

I discovered recently, when I fitted a 5K crankshaft pulley to a 4K motor, that the timing marks are in different places on a 4K & 5K pulley & timing chain cover.

The most important starting point, is that the timing mark on the crankshaft pulley, when lined up with the timing chain cover, is in the correct place. Don't assume if others have assembled the motor, that the crankshaft pulley is in the correct alignment.  What it the key had been omitted, & the crankshaft pulley was out any number of degrees.  That is your base timing starting point.

The next place I would check, is the cam/valve timing.  This involves, removing all spark plug, & rocker cover, (although can be accomplished looking down the oil filler nech with a pen torch), & checking that number 1 cylinder inlet valve fully closes, approximately 90 deg BTDC, or a quarter of a crankshaft turn; before no: 1 piston gets to the TDC (compression stroke), while slowly turning the crankshaft clockwise with a big ring spanner, on the crankshaft pulley centre bolt. 

https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/71502-fitting-k-series-camshaft-timing-chain/

This is the most important first step. It has been known, on this forum, that the timing chain & or camshaft sprocket, have not been fitted correctly, & lined up.  We have had cases of the "location pin" for the camshaft & it's sprocket, being left out, or has sheared off.  We've had the camshaft sprocket chain out one link, as the marks on the sprocket * crankshaft pulley, did not line up when a straight line was drwan through the centre of camshaft & crankshaft.

Once all that is tested, & proves OK, then you can be confident, that when you insert the distributor, that the camshaft is correctly timed.

While you have the rocker cover off, I would also be maybe rechecking the head bolt tensions, & checking the valve to rocker clearances & contact points, as presumably you have had to change the complete rocker gear, as the engine originally had hydraulic valve lifters. 

After that basic timing testing & checking, then all the other aspects, like dizzy timing/points/inlet leakage/mainifold gasket/carby butterfly closing & balance can be addressed one by one.

At that stage, a very good instrument, to have fitted to your engine is a simple vacuum gauge.  It tells you so much about where you can't see, inside the inlet mainfold tract.

Here is an article & good read from years ago, which includes some salient points, now that you are getting to the "pointy" end of setting advance etc.

https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/73377-distributor-vacuum-advance/

Next time, I'm in Noosa, I'll give you a yell, & we'll catch up, as I'm also a great fan of the 5K engine, as being one of the best of the K Series engines.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

Edited by Banjo
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Hey Luca,

                 As you've indicated that you thought maybe the distributor gear cog was out maybe, 1 or 2 teeth, I thought I'd look up our forum, & see if we had ever posted any advice or instructions, as to how to go about this.  I'm sure we have; but can't seem to find anything.  This is one action, a lot of K Series owners have a problem with.

The oil pump is driven by the camshaft; but only when the distributor shaft is in place., as you well know, after placing your drill down the dizzy hole & spinning it, when chasing the oil pressure issue.

The trick is, to place the slot in the oil pump, with a screw driver, in exactly the right position; so that when the distributor shaft engages & slews clockwise, that the dog flat on the end of the dizzy shaft drops straight into the slot on the top of the oil pump shaft. It usually takes 2 or 3 tries to get it right.  However, it has to finish up with the rotor button, pointing in the right position.  I'm sure the Japanese worker at Toyota, back in the 1960-70, could do this in his sleep, with his eyes closed, but as we do it ever so often, it takes a bit of effort & care.  The very first thing, is to make sure the engine crankshaft is at no: 1 TDC.  It's a good idea, to fit the rotor button to the dizzy, whist inserting it, & placing a mark where no: spark plug lead post is, on the outer alloy edge of the dizzy. If it does line up perfectly, when the dissy is fully inserted, & the advance / retard protusion on the dissy body is parallel to the block; then carefully remove; reposition the slot in the oil pump, with a screw driver, & then turn the dizzy shaft the same amount, in the same direction, & reinsert.

Next time, I do this on my engine, I'll take a couple of pics, & add them to this description.

Cheers  Banjo

 

Edited by Banjo
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2 hours ago, Banjo said:

Hi Luca,

               I understand that this is a great learning curve for you, but understand, that an engine that is not "running correctly", can't necessarily be attributed to one thing, that is "not quite right".

More importantly; this is a 5K engine that has been rebuilt from scratch, with some mods, such as solid camshaft lifters; so everything is initially suspect.

Engines can run, but not well, due to one or more small aspects, being "just not quite right".

example:  Just imagine if when the camshaft sprocket was fitted; if the "location pin" was omitted, or the timing chain was out one link.

If I was in Noosa, & could come around to assist you, I'd start right at the beginning.

The first thing  I'd do was check the valve/cam timing.  This does not require stripping the engine, but may involve say taking the rocker cover off, to watch the valves in detail.

I discovered recently, when I fitted a 5K crankshaft pulley to a 4K motor, that the timing marks are in different places on a 4K & 5K pulley & timing chain cover.

The most important starting point, is that the timing mark on the crankshaft pulley, when lined up with the timing chain cover, is in the correct place. Don't assume if others have assembled the motor, that the crankshaft pulley is in the correct alignment.  What it the key had been omitted, & the crankshaft pulley was out any number of degrees.  That is your base timing starting point.

The next place I would check, is the cam/valve timing.  This involves, removing all spark plug, & rocker cover, (although can be accomplished looking down the oil filler nech with a pen torch), & checking that number 1 cylinder inlet valve fully closes, approximately 90 deg BTDC, or a quarter of a crankshaft turn; before no: 1 piston gets to the TDC (compression stroke), while slowly turning the crankshaft clockwise with a big ring spanner, on the crankshaft pulley centre bolt. 

https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/71502-fitting-k-series-camshaft-timing-chain/

This is the most important first step. It has been known, on this forum, that the timing chain & or camshaft sprocket, have not been fitted correctly, & lined up.  We have had cases of the "location pin" for the camshaft & it's sprocket, being left out, or has sheared off.  We've had the camshaft sprocket chain out one link, as the marks on the sprocket * crankshaft pulley, did not line up when a straight line was drwan through the centre of camshaft & crankshaft.

Once all that is tested, & proves OK, then you can be confident, that when you insert the distributor, that the camshaft is correctly timed.

While you have the rocker cover off, I would also be maybe rechecking the head bolt tensions, & checking the valve to rocker clearances & contact points, as presumably you have had to change the complete rocker gear, as the engine originally had hydraulic valve lifters. 

After that basic timing testing & checking, then all the other aspects, like dizzy timing/points/inlet leakage/mainifold gasket/carby butterfly closing & balance can be addressed one by one.

At that stage, a very good instrument, to have fitted to your engine is a simple vacuum gauge.  It tells you so much about where you can't see, inside the inlet mainfold tract.

Here is an article & good read from years ago, which includes some salient points, now that you are getting to the "pointy" end of setting advance etc.

https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/73377-distributor-vacuum-advance/

Next time, I'm in Noosa, I'll give you a yell, & we'll catch up, as I'm also a great fan of the 5K engine, as being one of the best of the K Series engines.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

Hey Banjo!

I'm thinking the best course of action for me is to rip out the engine and check the cam timing again and go through the list as you have stated. The crank keyway and the cam location pin for the cam sprocket are still there, and from memory the cam timing is perfect. However, I don't believe I aligned the camshaft thrust plate with the camshaft pin come to think of it.

I have attempted all of the different ways to set the dizzy, and made sure every step was done perfectly. I gave the carbs a baseline tune also.

Here is a video of where I am currently. https://imgur.com/gallery/qJqkCwF

Whats odd to me, is that shining the timing light on the crank pulley shows the timing line jump around between 0 degrees and 10 degrees on the cam cover. Would this be indicative of the chain slipping?

Also, would the issues I am having with timing be effected by the grounding on the distributor? I have noticed that when the distributor is turned, the plastic bit on the outside of the dizzy that holds the ground in place sometimes sparks on the metal part of the heater hose.

Its becoming more prevalent that the engine must come out to be inspected again. As well, if you are ever in noosa, give me a shout, I love to talk corollas

Kind regards

Edited by LucaKE
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Hey Luca,

                 I wouldn’t be ripping the engine out, at this stage.  Did you assemble the timing chain & alignment with the crankshaft pulley;  or did others ?  If it was you, did you follow the maunual instructions, & pay attention to the alignment, as described in my link, in pictures, in my previous post.

You can test the timing, as I suggestedy; by taking out the spark plugs & turning the enigine over by hand & watching the rocker arm & push rods, relative to where the cranksaft pulley & distributor rotor are, at any given point of rotation.

Many engine builders, place a large degree wheel on the flywheel, before the gearbox, is remated; which allows to accuraltely noting of the opening & closing angles of the inlet & exhaust valves on each cylinder. Is the cam in the engine standard, or a modified or performance version ?  

Quote

Also, would the issues I am having with timing be effected by the grounding on the distributor? I have noticed that when the distributor is turned, the plastic bit on the outside of the dizzy that holds the ground in place sometimes sparks on the metal part of the heater hose.

The dizzy doesn't have a wire that grounds it.  The dizzy's ground/earth, is the engine block itself.   Is the block securely grounded to chassis & negative terminal of the battery ?  It must be or the starter motor would not work properly.  The only wire to the dizzy, is the wire going to the ignition coil -ve terminal.  You indicated that you have "points", so the dissy is obviously not a 5K electronic type.  Just move the heater hose offending part, if it is that close.  If the dissy is inserted & orientated correctly, it's electrical terminal shouldn't be anywhere close to heater hose clamps or earthed parts.

As to the boucing around of the timing light strobe, I can only suggest that vacuum line is pulsating, due to leakage at the manifold,  Whilst it is boucing around, pinch the hose to the dizzy, closed; & see if that stops is fluctuating. If it does, then it is a fluctuating vaccuum that is causing the issue.

 

Cheers  Banjo

 

Edited by Banjo
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Hi Banjo, sorry! I didn't see your message earlier, we had a wicked storm pass through and I had to rush around to get things inside.

4 hours ago, Banjo said:

Did you assemble the timing chain & alignment with the crankshaft pulley;  or did others ?  If it was you, did you follow the maunual instructions, & pay attention to the alignment, as described in my link, in pictures, in my previous post.

 

The timing chain and alignment was done by me, the chain was upgraded to a double row. The crankshaft keyway was 90 degrees and all the dots lined up where they should be against the pulley when the engine was at 0 degrees TDC. I thought today that the thrust cam plate was put backwards, but I just checked my photos and it looks like it was correct. If the thrust plate was fitted backwards, would this cause issues such as what I am experiencing?

Or is it impossible to fit the plate backwards and have the cam sprocket spin?

 

6 hours ago, Banjo said:

when the dissy is fully inserted, & the advance / retard protusion on the dissy body is parallel to the block;

I am unsure of what the dizzy advance/retard protusion looks like on the dizzy? I tried to find more information on google but nothing seems helpful.

4 hours ago, Banjo said:

Is the cam in the engine standard, or a modified or performance version ?  

Standard 5k cam.

 

I will give it another go tomorrow. Looking forward to getting this right. Thanks again for all your help Banjo and Altezza

Kind regards

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"Whats odd to me, is that shining the timing light on the crank pulley shows the timing line jump around between 0 degrees and 10 degrees on the cam cover. "

Not unusual, slop in the cam chain, slop in the oil pump gear drive to the cam, slop in the dizzy bush holding the shaft.. Try putting the sensor for the light on the HT coil lead, it will flash for all cylinders then. Its always worse when the engine is idling and over-running a touch, worse with hot cams, but vanishes when the engine is pulling on acceleration.  Build a home-made dyno so you can check it under load!

It might be better if all Weber throats are working the same and delivering the same amount of fuel and air, so the motor doesn't surge on one cylinder and flip the dizzy weights out to advance it briefly.

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2 minutes ago, altezzaclub said:

"Whats odd to me, is that shining the timing light on the crank pulley shows the timing line jump around between 0 degrees and 10 degrees on the cam cover. "

Not unusual, slop in the cam chain, slop in the oil pump gear drive to the cam, slop in the dizzy bush holding the shaft.. Try putting the sensor for the light on the HT coil lead, it will flash for all cylinders then. Its always worse when the engine is idling and over-running a touch, worse with hot cams, but vanishes when the engine is pulling on acceleration.  Build a home-made dyno so you can check it under load!

It might be better if all Weber throats are working the same and delivering the same amount of fuel and air, so the motor doesn't surge on one cylinder and flip the dizzy weights out to advance it briefly.

What are your thoughts on the fact that it does seem to be at 8 degrees BTDC with the light shining on the crank pulley, but still doesnt act correctly? Before I filmed that clip, I balanced carb butterflies and reset the baseline tune.

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Hi Luca,

              Thanks for your answers to my previous queries.

Your Query:

Quote

I am unsure of what the dizzy advance/retard protusion looks like on the dizzy? I tried to find more information on google but nothing seems helpful.

Looking down on the distributor from the top, without the dizzy cap thereupon, the distributor looks basically "round/circular" except for part of the dizzy body which houses the operating shaft, to rotate the movable plate in the dizzy,  This shaft is driven, by the belows at the end to which the hose from manifold vacuum, is fed to the dizzy.  That part of the dizzy protrudes from the dizzy case, & usually lies basically parallel to the engine block, if the dizzy is correctly inserted with the camshaft.

It appears we might have more than one issue here, that is causing confusion as to how to fix your issues.

1. There is still the question whether the "engine mechaical" timing is correct.

2. There is the definite question, as to what effect, leakage of air into the manifold is affecting the mixture, & vacuum to the distributor advance/retard mechanism.

3. There is the question whether the ignition is irregular or intermittent (boucing around)

It is possible to turn the engine over without it actually combusting;  by turning the engine via the starter motor only.  It's not hard, once you remove the spark plugs, so there is no compression. Sure it won't run at 1000rpm, but at a 100 or so RPM, on the starter motor, you can easily check the timing, without fuel.  I've done this a couple of times, when I've encountered strange faults, or combinations thereof; & it does work.

Actually I have a "locked up"  3K dizzy I sometimes insert, to remove any possibilty that automatic advance/retard has any effect, on a particular problem.

So for this test we need you to do the following.

1. Remove all four spark plus.

2. remove vacuum line from dissy or manifold.

3. Prop open fully all carby throttle butterflys.

4. Remove the HT lead between the ignition coil & centre of dizzy cap.

5. Take one spark plug, & put it upside down, in the top of the ignition coil.

6.  Get a bit of insulated copper wire, & strip insulation from one end & wrap around thread of the upside down spark plug, & connect the other end of this wire to ground/earth/negative.

7.  Place your timing light pickup clamp, around this wire in 6, with the arrow on the clamp pointing towards the ground end.

You are now ready to go.  You might need to have a second person turn & hold the ignition key in the "start" position, so You can clearly direct the strobe at the timing marks on the front of the engine.  The strobe will flash 4 times each two revolutions, instead of 1, but that does not matter.  You should be able to clearly see what the base timing of your engine is.

Tip: A "little whiteout" on the timing marks on the timing chain cover, & the crankshaft pulley timing mark,  will help the clarity, of what you are trying to discover.

Cheers Banjo  

 

 

 

 

Edited by Banjo
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Hi Banjo! Thanks for your reply

 

10 hours ago, Banjo said:

7.  Place your timing light pickup clamp, around this wire in 6, with the arrow on the clamp pointing towards the ground end.

Just want to clarify, is the pickup clamp on the timing light the inductive clamp that goes around the spark plug lead?

 

Ill give this a go this afternoon and see what the story is. Hopefully its good news.

 

Kind regards

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