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5K with no oil pressure!


LucaKE
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Hi there fellow corolla nerds!

I have just recently built a 5k for my ke38, and I got around to turning the key today.

I took the spark plug leads off the spark plugs. The car cranks, which is good, the oil pressure light comes on, but doesn't go away. Its not currently making oil pressure. The engine was assembled with plenty of oil, so I don't believe that I've done any damage.

I took off the oil filter to see if the pump was working, and oil filter is very dry! I then took off the distributor to see the little knurled camshaft gear turns and hand cranked it. Nope, no movement at all. Also, the fuel pump is not pumping/making any pressure.

 

My suspicion is with the timing chain assembly at the front. My guess is that the cam is not being turned, but before I begin the process, what are your recommendations for how I should proceed?

Cheers legends!

 

edit: just saw i posted this in automotive discussion, not general mechanical. Delete if not allowed :)

Edited by LucaKE
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Continue what you're doing...  chase the timing chain and see why its not turning the cam.  Broken cam?  Lack of woodruff key? Broken chain?

Something in there is not right, and I can't think of a shortcut to check it that doesn't involve pulling the cam cover off and turning it by hand while you watch.

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3 hours ago, altezzaclub said:

Continue what you're doing...  chase the timing chain and see why its not turning the cam.  Broken cam?  Lack of woodruff key? Broken chain?

Something in there is not right, and I can't think of a shortcut to check it that doesn't involve pulling the cam cover off and turning it by hand while you watch.

So! Opened up the timing case this morning and checked to see if everything was okay! 

 

Thank goodness, yes everything looks fine! Spun the engine and the cam moved. Was a bit confused at this point. I went back and double checked the dizzy and realised I am a muffin. The cam was spinning, but the oil pump was not. 

 

I checked to see if the pump was seized by quickly spinning it with a screw driver, and it span butter smooth. 

 

Then I realised the "flathead" bit at the end of dizzy wasnt sitting in the oil pump! 

 

Facepalming myself, but relieved it wasn't anything else! 

 

Currently making a new gasket for the timing cover and will turn it over when the sealant dries.  

 

Another thing, I am using the fuel pump from a 4k. Its from my old motor and brand new. Is this a problem? 

 

Another fuel pump question, there is a rubber insulator between the block and fuel pump. I heard that there was some plate thats needed to stop the arm from snapping? Pics included! 

image.jpg

image.jpg

 

Edited by LucaKE
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So! Turns out, I still don't have oil pressure.

 

The pump is turning and I THINK that there is oil going into the filter, but the light on the dash stays red and doesn't turn off. I had a z68 filter, and just put on a z386 ryco filter. Still no change.

 

I have done a solid lifter conversion. This lifter conversion has Holden 202 lifters, Datsun 1200 pushrods and a 4k adjustable rocker arm. Would this effect oil pressure?

 

It is a 5k, in a car with a 4k wiring loom. Does the oil pressure sensor need to be a 4k one? Does the sensor type matter?

 

Would love your thoughts !

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Ok, you've solved the first part!  Now the oil pump turns..

So, you might have a broken sensor, one that stays 'closed' when there is oil pressure.

You might have a pressure relief valve stuck open so oil pressure can't build.

Take the oil pressure sensor off and crank it, see if oil squirts out.

-If it does, take the filler cap off (might have to be the whole tappet cover) and look for oil coming out of the rockers. (pumped up through the rocker shaft)

-If it doesn't come out the pressure sensor, check & clean the oil filter housing internally, that's where the relief valve is. Look inside the filter to see if its full. If that doesn't help, crank it with no oil filter housing and see if you get a mess on the floor...  If no mess, the oil pump isn't working for some reason or another.  If it is working, you might be loosing pressure to the head, and if oil is getting up there the sender must be crook.

The lifters can't effect oil pressure, the oil gets pumped up to the head through the gasket (which better be on the right way up!), runs along the rocker shaft and comes out the squirter holes in the rockers, runs down onto the valves on one side and runs down the pushrods to the followers on the other, so they are all lubricated by oil draining back to the sump.

The fuel pump should run a 5K with no problem, and I haven't heard that here is a metal plate to stop  the arm snapping, that should only happen if you don't have the insulating block in there.

 

 

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Yep !  That works.  I've tried it once or twice in my "Corolla life".  Get an olde blade screwdriver with a reasonably long shaft.  Cut off the handle, & attach to an electric drill.

Make sure the drill is speed controlled, as if you use the drill at high speed, you will either have oil all over the place, or you could do yourself damage, if the blade comes out of the oil pump slot.  Remove the oil pressure sensor, just below the oil filter.  Beats removing the sump & oil pump, to test.  Rarely do oil pumps completely fail, but the high pressure bypass vavle in the oil pump body, have been known to stick open if something tiny gets jammed in there.  Happened to me once in a Fiat 125S, but that's a long story; & a long time ago.

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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On 9/12/2022 at 9:00 AM, altezzaclub said:

Ok, you've solved the first part!  Now the oil pump turns..

So, you might have a broken sensor, one that stays 'closed' when there is oil pressure.

You might have a pressure relief valve stuck open so oil pressure can't build.

Take the oil pressure sensor off and crank it, see if oil squirts out.

-If it does, take the filler cap off (might have to be the whole tappet cover) and look for oil coming out of the rockers. (pumped up through the rocker shaft)

-If it doesn't come out the pressure sensor, check & clean the oil filter housing internally, that's where the relief valve is. Look inside the filter to see if its full. If that doesn't help, crank it with no oil filter housing and see if you get a mess on the floor...  If no mess, the oil pump isn't working for some reason or another.  If it is working, you might be loosing pressure to the head, and if oil is getting up there the sender must be crook.

The lifters can't effect oil pressure, the oil gets pumped up to the head through the gasket (which better be on the right way up!), runs along the rocker shaft and comes out the squirter holes in the rockers, runs down onto the valves on one side and runs down the pushrods to the followers on the other, so they are all lubricated by oil draining back to the sump.

The fuel pump should run a 5K with no problem, and I haven't heard that here is a metal plate to stop  the arm snapping, that should only happen if you don't have the insulating block in there.

 

 

 

On 9/12/2022 at 9:17 AM, Banjo said:

Yep !  That works.  I've tried it once or twice in my "Corolla life".  Get an olde blade screwdriver with a reasonably long shaft.  Cut off the handle, & attach to an electric drill.

Make sure the drill is speed controlled, as if you use the drill at high speed, you will either have oil all over the place, or you could do yourself damage, if the blade comes out of the oil pump slot.  Remove the oil pressure sensor, just below the oil filter.  Beats removing the sump & oil pump, to test.  Rarely do oil pumps completely fail, but the high pressure bypass vavle in the oil pump body, have been known to stick open if something tiny gets jammed in there.  Happened to me once in a Fiat 125S, but that's a long story; & a long time ago.

Cheers Banjo

Thanks for your responses guys!


So, Ive been out in the garage today doing some of the stuff you have suggested!

First off, I took the oil pressure sensor out of the filter housing and span the oil pump by hand with a screw driver. And oil was coming out! Yay! Oil pump is not broken!

I kept turning the oil pump and oil began to come out briefly where the oil pump connects to the dizzy, where I was spinning. I am assuming it is, I wanted to check if that was normal!

image5.thumb.jpeg.3eed9e695f281912839e5fe8ecaf2b1d.jpeg

 


Also, Altezzaclub mentioned that oil should come out of the rockers. I forgot to mention, but I have a 4k head on a 5k with 4k rocker gear. I couldn't see an oil coming out of the rockers while hand cranking, so I got a flathead and cut off the handle to prime the oil pump. Still no oil going into the rockers even with the drill on full blast! Does the engine have to be cranking?

image4.thumb.jpeg.361dd0663b56b15c214c79f900366903.jpeg

Cheers guys! I really appreciate your help!

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Hi Luca,

              That last picture of the head & rocker gear, indicates that the gear has been unlubricated for a while.  As you are getting oil at the dizzy meshing point, which is normal, as oil is drawn up the dizzy shaft with oilways in the shaft, to the dizzy bearing.  Most Denso dizzies have a hole in the base to drain out any excess oil that gets to the dizzy bearing.  It looks like there maybe a blocking of the oilways to the head; with the head gasket used, or the head & block oil ways may not line up.

Before ripping the head off, I would simply unbolt & remove the rocker gear, & see if any oil comes up the oilway, when you rotate the oil pump, with your drill.

How long have you been running this 5K engine, block with a 4K head ?

If this suggested test, doesn't produce a clear answer; & the rocker gear removed, hasn't been oiled for a while; you may well have to then remove the head.

Good luck, & keep us informed.

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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6 minutes ago, Banjo said:

Hi Luca,

              That last picture of the head & rocker gear, indicates that the gear has been unlubricated for a while.  As you are getting oil at the dizzy meshing point, which is normal, as oil is drawn up the dizzy shaft with oilways in the shaft, to the dizzy bearing.  Most Denso dizzies have a hole in the base to drain out any excess oil that gets to the dizzy bearing.  It looks like there maybe a blocking of the oilways to the head; with the head gasket used, or the head & block oil ways may not line up.

Before ripping the head off, I would simply unbolt & remove the rocker gear, & see if any oil comes up the oilway, when you rotate the oil pump, with your drill.

How long have you been running this 5K engine, block with a 4K head ?

If this suggested test, doesn't produce a clear answer; & the rocker gear removed, hasn't been oiled for a while; you may well have to then remove the head.

Good luck, & keep us informed.

Cheers Banjo

Hi Banjo!

This is a fresh rebuild, hasnt run yet, and the bloke who sold it to me (didn't realise it at the time) probably slapped on a 4k head instead of a 5k one. I have since put high comp pistons in and the CR is 9.5:1, So that should be good to run!

I just took off the rocker gear, and spun the oil pump. Still no oil coming up, guess its time to take off the head! I remember specifically putting the gasket the right way up but who knows whats the story there. Ill open it up and have a look again!

Will be keeping you posted!

Cheers

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Hmmm !   So if the engine has a higher compression, did the "engine builder" use a special head gasket, or a standard one. Off memory, there is only one oil feed to the rocker gear, in one of the central rocker supports. Not sure whether all rocker supports are the same, or if you got them mixed up, when reassembling, it could be possible to block the oil feed.  I'll have a look at a set of rockers, when next I head to the shed.

Cheers Banjo 

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1 hour ago, Banjo said:

Hmmm !   So if the engine has a higher compression, did the "engine builder" use a special head gasket, or a standard one. Off memory, there is only one oil feed to the rocker gear, in one of the central rocker supports. Not sure whether all rocker supports are the same, or if you got them mixed up, when reassembling, it could be possible to block the oil feed.  I'll have a look at a set of rockers, when next I head to the shed.

Cheers Banjo 

Hey Banjo! Took the head off, and spun the oil pump again. No oil is being pumped to the deck.

The head gasket was a standard one, but it was installed correctly and I was told is totally fine for the motor.

The rocker gear lines up perfectly with the oil feed hole in the head and isnt blocked! I stuck a long screw through the oil feed hole in the deck, and it hits something!

It looks like the end of a temp sensor that goes into the housing, cylindrical in shape. I couldnt get a picture sorry! I couldn't tell if its partially blocked or fully blocked. Could it be something that is attached to the cam system/screws in around there? I'm racking my brains, but I don't believe that there is anything that does! I'm really stumped!

Edited by LucaKE
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Hi Luca,

               What is the brand & model number of the oil filter on your 5K engine ?   I'm presuming it was brand new, when it was fitted to this engine, that has never run.

It just sounds to me, like you might have an oil filter with a faulty high pressure valve, or the like.   If in any doubt, then simply replace the filter with a brand new one, & see if that changes the results, you are currently getting.  It's an initial cheaper option than getting the sump off.

P.S.  Does this 5K block have hydraulic or solid lifters.  5K blacks were manufactured with both configurations.  Was the 5K convertered to solid lifters, at some time ?

P.S.S.   Did the rocker shaft supports have any shims under them, between base & the head ?

Have heard of oil pressure issues, sometimes, if a solid lifter conversion, is not carried out properly.

Cheers Banjo

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51 minutes ago, Banjo said:

Hi Luca,

               What is the brand & model number of the oil filter on your 5K engine ?   I'm presuming it was brand new, when it was fitted to this engine, that has never run.

It just sounds to me, like you might have an oil filter with a faulty high pressure valve, or the like.   If in any doubt, then simply replace the filter with a brand new one, & see if that changes the results, you are currently getting.  It's an initial cheaper option than getting the sump off.

P.S.  Does this 5K block have hydraulic or solid lifters.  5K blacks were manufactured with both configurations.  Was the 5K convertered to solid lifters, at some time ?

P.S.S.   Did the rocker shaft supports have any shims under them, between base & the head ?

Have heard of oil pressure issues, sometimes, if a solid lifter conversion, is not carried out properly.

Cheers Banjo

Hey Banjo,

I have a brand spankin new Ryco z386 filter installed currently!

The 5k does have a solid lifter conversion! Its running Holden 202 lifters, 1200 pushrods and 4k rocker gear. I chose to do this swap because its a 4k head on a 5k, and the original 5k pushrods were way too short for the rocker gear. Because the head has been taken off, it shouldn't matter what the lifter/rocker setup is, because no oil is being pushed through the oilway to the head whilst I'm turning the pump?

I don't believe there is any shims under the rocker shafts. Shims, do they look like washers etc?

I just want to clarify, that when I mean no oil is coming to the deck, that there is no oil coming out of the oilway that's in the block, circled in the image below. Oil is being pumped by the pump!

image1(6).thumb.jpeg.5799c590a706fab23ee594772d5b007e.jpeg

A real head scratcher!

p.s: excuse the oil sitting in the piston. I poured too much in. Its gone now. Used it to wet the deck and walls so that it doesnt rust. I live near a beach.

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So if there is no oil coming out that circled hole to the second rocker shaft mount, from the front, you can be quite sure, that the issue is in the bottom half of the engine.

I just looked up a Z386 Ryco, which is one I have on the shelf here, for a later model Toyota Corolla or Echo, my daughter or wife has.  The Ryco one specified for the 5K, as well as other K Series engines is the Z68.  I tend to use the Z423, which has an anti drain back valve, which the Z68 doesn't have, off memory.  the Z423 is also used by some Merc models.  The Z386 is quite a small filter physically, by comparison, to the original Z68, specified for the 5K engine.  Have you got a picture of the Z386 filter mounted on the block ?

image.png.3dbefa80d1220149b63fa238b39563e1.png

It has a pressure relief valve & an anti drain back valve built in, but not an anti syphon valve. I'm now wondering wether there is someting  wrong in the filter department, that is draining the oil straight back into the sump.  The only other place, short of leaving a bearing slipper out, during reassembly, would be something to do with the timing chain tensioner, or oil squirter, for the chain.  

We are fast running out of alternatives, to dropping the sump, as I believe the engine, is already in the car.

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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