20V Rwd Conversion And Questions

[gt4_vinnie]

Hey guys, new to the forum, but certainly not to Toyota's.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have an AE86 yet, but planning on getting one soon, after I finish my ST165 gt4 Celica, but got offered an engine, and now have some ideas in which I would love some help in deciding what and how to do.

 

Right, so i recently just picked up a 4A-GE 20v Silvertop engine and box out of an AE101 Levin, for a steal.

170,000kms on the clock, complete engine, afm, ecu, cut loom, 5 speed manual gearbox and a few other accessories.

 

My plan is to flick all the sh*t I don't need off, including the box, P/S pump and A/C system, and build the 20v to RWD.

 

So far I know some of what I need to do, RWD Spigot bearing, clutch, flywheel, T50, RWD Alternator bracket, engine mounts etc.

Gonna get one of the water kits from SQ engineering, to sort that out. All I really need now is to figure out how to run the air intake, and work my coils / ignition out.

 

Whats the best suggestions for the intake, while running factory ecu, as not looking at aftermarket ECU yet, so I know I'll have to use the AFM.

 

Using a set of duel wasted spark coils from a 4A-GZE setup, how hard would it be, to remove dizzy cap, cover CAS, and run the CAS into the duel coil packs instead of one? Or is there an easier, more cost effective way to do this.

 

So that's the conversion of the engine pretty well sorted, until I find a vehicle and have to mate it all up, but I'll get to that when I can. My next question is regarding fitting a supercharger to the RWD 20 4A-GE.

 

Will the internals of the 20v handle the capabilities of a supercharger, just gonna be for street application, so not sever boost, just a little more go when I need it. Also what would be the best way to mount/use the supercharger, and what would be involved with fitting one up. I'm thinking the SC-12 or SC-14, but you guys can offer me a better idea if you got one, I'm open to feedback. I don't really wanna run a turbo, as my 3S-GTE is gonna be the turbo'ed powerhouse, so definitely wanting to keep the 4A-GE N/A or Supercharged.

 

What would you guys have in mind, and are there any other complications I'm going to run into along the way?

 

Thanks in advanced.

Vinnie

[LittleRedSpirit]

You cannot both fit in rwd and use a stock ecu.

 

Pick one of the two ideas and go with it.

 

Either accept the need for aftermarket management or see it and buy a 16v 4age which you can easily run on stock management.

 

The firewall and distributor are going to collide. Firewall mods are illegal. So the dizzy cap has to go and be replaced with the cover that some aftermarket people sell.

 

Then you can use the stock hall effect sensor in the dizzy to connect to the ecu to calculate your ignition and injection routine.

 

PS, you can just leave the fwd waterpump, alternator and crank pulleys alone, as all you need is a front thermostat fitting, and samQs magical rear fitting. Then you connect the back of the waterpump to the bottom radiator hose and the top radiator hose to the thermostat fitting that you will install above the waterpump.

 

You wont be able to use afm easily, as you will need to remake the stock airbox to clear in rwd, which is very fiddly and hard to be able to fit it. If you use an ae111 4age ecu then you can use a map sensor hooked up to the vacuum sharing ports and then throw the airbox away.

 

To fit a blower you need to decide a bunch of stuff.

 

You can run a low boost system (max 5psi maybe) on a stock motor, but any more boost than that and it gets dicey. Silvertop rods are the same as 4agze rods, and the cranks are very strong. Pistons should be swapped out for lower compression rated items if you want to run the usual 7-14 psi of boost.

 

You also need to decide what type of blower (sc12/14 are pretty old nowadays), whether to retain quads, and whether or not you should just go straight to a W55 to avoid breaking a bunch of T50s that NA drivers could use.

Edited March 27, 2013 by LittleRedSpirit

[gt4_vinnie]

Cheers for the quick reply.

 

So theres no way to modify the signal wire of the hall effect sensor, to run it into two coil packs, for a wasted spark setup?

As I thought that I read somewhere that you just ned to split the signal and it will run it, but could be wrong.

 

I was thinking the SC 12 or 14, and if I was to Supercharge it, was probably gonna go w55, still deciding on that though, may just leave N/A. And if I was gonna do that, probably gonna do new pistons 4AGZE ones, was gonna go a full rebuilt/upgrade, but good to know the old rods and crankshaft are worthy as is.

 

As for the intake, would running a blacktop ecu have any ill effects with running a silvertop engine? and if not, would the best way to run that be just the quad TB's or Ram tubes and a MAP sensor? Also is the blacktop ecu able to run Coil over plug or wasted spark without much modification, or would Aftermarket still be the way to go?

 

Thanks

Vinnie

[LittleRedSpirit]

You're getting your info from random sources. Most of what's on the net is speculation, and if you read somewhere that someone thought you could do something, most likely they never followed through on it and actually did anything, and thus just misled a bunch of people with false hope. There was a dli ignition converter on the market a while back but they are unavailable, and the person who reckoned he invented it just stole a design from another more intelligent guru and passed it off as his own, then promptly took orders that were never filled. Yes I know a lot more about this person then they realise, haha.

 

GZE Pistons in a 20v? Think it through. Just get low comp 20v slugs if you're buying new anyhow, they will have the right flycuts in them.

 

Just get aftermarket management, especially if at some stage you're going to boost it. You'll definitely need it then.

 

Silvertops run ok on a blacktop computer, but I have heard its not perfect. The differences in the motor being less of an issue as the difference in fuel quality from Japan to here.

Edited March 27, 2013 by LittleRedSpirit

[gt4_vinnie]

Ahh well that would explain the 'bits and pieces of info' lol.

 

Doesn't TRD also make spacer plates for the head, to lower compression, basically a thick gasket, or was that for the red tops only?

 

And I may just go N/A for now, can always add.

 

So running an aftermarket ECU, little new to the programable ECU, still running stock on my Celica, but may change that too.

With running that, what would be the best way to go for intake and ignition, would I still need the cam angle sensor from the dizzy, and then run coil over plugs or would the wasted spark system be better, Just not too sure on whats easiest accessible over here in NZ.

 

And what would be the best for the intake, quad throttle bodies, with map sensor and Ram tubes? say 40mm?

 

All of my guesses are just that, i've not had the luxuary of having that much to do in terms of power upgrades on the 4age, Ive spent the last year building the 3sgte, and bypassed alli its restrictions on stock ECU lol, looking back, setting up though would of been so much easier with removing the need for the AFM, and then running everything through proper programable software.

 

Cheers for that, any tips on the best way to do this would be helpful, wanna have it reliable, powerfull, but also cost effective, as only on a low wage, so not to much can be spent at once.

 

Cheers

Vinnie

[LittleRedSpirit]

In pure engineering terms a thicker hg is not ideal. Youre better off with the right pistons. Something to do with the shape in the corner of the chamber.

 

Just ram tubes and filters, most people don't run them but they ruin engines prematurely.

 

AFMs are troublesome, do away with them wherever possible.

 

 

I'm running coil over plug on my na silvertop, its run in wasted spark. You have these choices with aftermarket. You can either run coilpacks or COP, up to you. Coilpacks can be more energetic, but COP is more elegant.

[gt4_vinnie]

So probably forged pistons with about 8.5 - 9 :1 compression, as just looked at a crowd over here which does two sets, 11.5:1 CR for N/A applications, or 8.5:1 CR for turbo/supercharged. Both a similar price, just running it N/A the higher compression ones would be ideal, but then would need to change em for the super charger, if I was to do it. Probably not, the whole idea came from me and my Brother building two good cars for the legal street racing over here, down a mountain pass. He was gonna do an mx5 1600, and me the ae86 1600, and we were gonna try keep em even.

 

So how hard is it to filter the ram tubes, cause too fine would be restictive, and too course would be useless. Is there a crowd that make filters for the silvertop rams?

 

So COP and Coilpack, the difference between em, is there a noticeable benefit of one or really just personal preference.

 

Also what other upgrades, apart from a turbo or supercharger, would be good to do, wanna try build the 4age, to close to 200HP, don't really wanna go over that, as more or less want an underpowered lightweight machine, but a little power is nice haha.

 

Cheers for the help, made me solidify or remove those internet speculations from my theory of work. Thanks

 

Vinnie

[The_enthusiast]

learning some stuff here this is good littered!

 

don't want to jump in but what are the benefits of coils over plugs in terms of performance just literally googling it now, because s-86 do a dizzy relocation kit but don't know what the difference in leads and spark is!

 

jack

(sorry vinnie)

[The_enthusiast]

So probably forged pistons with about 8.5 - 9 :1 compression, as just looked at a crowd over here which does two sets, 11.5:1 CR for N/A applications, or 8.5:1 CR for turbo/supercharged. Both a similar price, just running it N/A the higher compression ones would be ideal, but then would need to change em for the super charger, if I was to do it. Probably not, the whole idea came from me and my Brother building two good cars for the legal street racing over here, down a mountain pass. He was gonna do an mx5 1600, and me the ae86 1600, and we were gonna try keep em even.

 

So how hard is it to filter the ram tubes, cause too fine would be restictive, and too course would be useless. Is there a crowd that make filters for the silvertop rams?

 

So COP and Coilpack, the difference between em, is there a noticeable benefit of one or really just personal preference.

 

Also what other upgrades, apart from a turbo or supercharger, would be good to do, wanna try build the 4age, to close to 200HP, don't really wanna go over that, as more or less want an underpowered lightweight machine, but a little power is nice haha.

 

Cheers for the help, made me solidify or remove those internet speculations from my theory of work. Thanks

 

Vinnie

 

thought about running a mild cam thats always fun!

[gt4_vinnie]

learning some stuff here this is good littered!

 

don't want to jump in but what are the benefits of coils over plugs in terms of performance just literally googling it now, because s-86 do a dizzy relocation kit but don't know what the difference in leads and spark is!

 

jack

(sorry vinnie)

 

All fine mate, we're all here to learn =), I don't mind ya jumping on my thread. I'm pretty sure, though could be wrong, its mainly just the recharge time of the coil thats the difference, COP has fewer recharges as each plug is controlled from a seperate coil, where as a wasted spark is constantly charging the coils for 2 to 4 plugs.

 

I'm not 100% sure if theres any performance gain in either, because both of them will be doing the same job, both will be clean sparks and right timing due to ECU programming, but I'm pretty sure its mainly preference for whether you want 4 leads running around your engine, or just want Coils sitting ontop of each plug.

 

Was thinking about hotted up cams, and adjustable cam gears, but looks like I'm pretty limited for choice over here with what options. Also would like to know the best lift angle etc and what the factory cam specs are, so I can get an application that suits.

 

I want a high revving engine, so gonna be lightend flywheel, electric fan, removed A/C and P/S and possible forged lightweight pistons eventually, so cams and cam gears were probably a must.

 

Cheers

Vinnie

[LittleRedSpirit]

Silvertop is 10.5:1 std I believe, so its about right for our shit fuel. Putting 11:1 or higher CR pistons in makes tuning a little more difficult with our fuel.

 

Uni filter make sock filters for them, readily available. I can get em for around $70 AU new at trade price.

 

Unless you boost it an the spark isnt strong enough to exist with the boosted environment, you wont notice a difference between coilpacks and cop in an na application.

 

Youd have to cam and do some porting to get the kind of power out of it you mention.

 

Never used a dizzy relocation kit, if your going aftermarket you don't need a dizzy. I'm not sure if sam at s86 has finished r and d on thoose kits, just message him, hes a guru on 20v stuff and long standing contributing rollaclubber.

 

Just keep everything light if you want it to rev. You can safely push a silvertop to 8000rpm all day long, however the cams peak at 7200, so to use all the rpm range appropriately you may just need a set of tomei poncams that let you retain vvt, which boosts low down power significantly, while still revving out.

 

The vvt turns on at 2000 and off at 6500 as if you leave the inlet cam that advanced it makes less power up top where the higher duration cams are taking effect. Basically to tune for vvt you do one dyno run with it on, one with it off, and then turn it off where the graphs cross, which is right around 6500.

 

You can get good gains from a nice set of headers also, make sure the pipe that attaches the head is a little larger diameter than the exhaust port and the collector design is correct. Google merge collector if you haven't already and see what they look like. This will lessen the impact of the reversion waves which can misappropriate your power delivery. Silver tops will have a reversion event around 3900rpm usually, but I lessened it on my car with just some neatening up of the header flanges, so don't be afraid to try new things.

 

You may want to google reversion to get a better understanding of what it is. Basically the valves create a pulsing frequency through the airstream, and at different times this frequency of pulsing air can help you or hurt you, you want the pulses to go down the exhaust and not come back. Having an airbox helps this also and can also yield more power by reflecting reversion back down the ports, but it kills the soul of the car if you ask me, as the open inlet noise disappears.