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rebuilder86

Anyone running a fuelmiser cc215 coil?

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anybody here, particularly those of u with a 4age have this coil. its listed by fuelmiser as being for the AE82 4AGE, but I'm running it on a 4k with internal ignitor. 

I was hoping someone could tell me what their coil resistance is between the high tension port and the positive terminal. This is known as the secondary coil resistance. Mine is reading only 6k ohms but i believe the std 4Age coils are up at a minimum of 11k ohms, so imagine this replacent should be similar :/ but its not. the primary windings specs match just fine at 0.6 ohms.

however the 4k handbook (ke70) shows the stock dizzy specs as follows for the 4k

with igniter - 10-15k ohms

without ignitor - 8-12 k ohms.

now this is getting close but i have an electronic distributor with internal ignitor, i so i guess that means high ohms (more spark) is needed from the small 0.5 ohms primary coil.

anyone have one (a fuelmiser cc215) that is relitively new they could test for me just to confirm that the one I'm running isnt just slightly shorted.

 

ive sent an email to fuelmisers parent company but not heard anything back :(

cheers

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Hi Jeremy,

                   I'd be more concerned with the primary resistance/impedance, than the secondary resistance.

The secondary resistance basically only controls the maximum Kilo Volts you get out of the coil.  The very low primary resistance of 0.5 ohms, is known as a High Energy or HEI type coil.

These low impedance coils are not suitable for use with a 4K electronic dizzy with an internal ignitor.

It might work initially, but will eventually burn the ignitor out.

The Toyota Yellow Bible gives specs. for the coil primary for use with a 4K dizzy with internal ignitor as minimum  1.3 to 1.6 ohms.  A coil with 0.5 ohm will eventually kill it.

A fellow RollaClub member had this problem, just 2 weeks ago, which I had a look at.  Brand new 4K electronic dizzy from ebay & a HEI coil.  Ran for several months then, "no start".

Diagnosed ignitor stuffed.  Saved dizzy, by removing internal ignitor, & connected the reluctor pickup to the original ignitor wires out to the coil.  Fitted a genuine external Bosch BIM-024 ignotor, and back in business.  However, to be on the safe side, replaced coil with a GT40 which has a higher primary resistance than the HEI coil that killed the ignitor.

I have intended to write a piece for the forum about the importance of matching coil specs to ignitor specs.   There are a lot of people out there, that don't fully understand how important this is, is you want outright reliability.

Basically the coil primary resistance determines the maximum current that can flow into the coil, whilst it is charging.  So Ohms Law says  I = E/R

If the Volts are 13.5 & the resistance of the coil is 0.5 ohm, then I = 13.5/0.5 = 27 amperes.

Ignitors come in various specs, one of which is the maximum DC amperes it can switch.  I've seen various ignitor specs ranging from, 3A, 6A, 10A, 16A, & 19A max.

Switching those sorts of current generates heat in the ignitor, so cooling them and having good airflow over them, is important for long term reliability.  Heatsinks are important.

I don't know specifically what the max. amperes the 4K dizzy with internal ignitor can handle. Its not in the manual, & doesn't appear on any website I have come across. They just provide a resistance range for the associated coil primary.

So if we assume 1.3 ohms as spec'd, & assume a nominal voltage of 12 volts, then R = 12/1.3 = 9.0 amperes.

Be very careful with this one, as it is so easy to lose an ignitor.   There are "smart" ignitors, that prevent the ignitor from charging the coil, once the coil has reached saturation.  I'm playing with some "smart" Toyota COPs at present, which do just that, but I can assure you the ignitor in the olde 4K electronic dizzy, has no such feature, like that.

Cheers Banjo

 

Edited by Banjo
  • Upvote 1

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right,

 i was hoping ud reply banjo.

thats kind of annoying haha, someone on here recommended the CC215 for this dizzy. but yes my research last night also revealed that 0.5 ohm coils are not good for those POWERSPARK brand things, which i think work exactly the same as this dizzy, so it got me worried. Now u confirmed it and I'm taking your word as gospel.
The last thing i need is for the dizzy igniter to shit itself, no change or a replacement here. would be just too hard.

however, i read that i can just install a resistor in series with the igniter from the coil positive and everything will be hunky dory. who knows.
Liek this

compatible-ignition-coils-ballast-resist

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christ you know what, the whoel reason for me enquiring about this again is because I'm getting a slight stumble missfire sometimes adn was suspecting my coil. maybe i have allready screwed the igniter.
FFS

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the coil i had in it before this CC215 was a bosch HEI but it measures 3 ohms across the terminals and 8k ohms for the secondary, so HEI doesnt automatically mean 0.5 ohms primary.
or is this bosch fake and claiming HIGH ENERGY for the stupid south east asian market who don't know any different? or has it failed and now reading a higher impendance?

model number F000 ZS0 027
K 12 V
made in brazil
 

appears that this old one i got here in cebu is listed for Fiat, seat, MG, porsche, TALBOT, renault, volvo, BM, mercedes benz, and alfa romeo. all very nice exotic cars, but completely random and nothing like the 1.5 ohms for an electronic ignition.  All the listed compatible vehicles on ebay germany are old 1960-1980 points type distributor vehicles. so this isn't the one i want either.
I remember it gave me a dull spark.

Edited by rebuilder86

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Hi Jeremy,

                   I understand your frustration.  Everything you read on the internet is not always "gospel" !

The term HEI  (High Energy Ignition) is loosely used.  I think it just "Sounds Good" to some people !

There is two (2) specifications regarding the primary of any given ignition coil, when you are charging it with an electronic ignitor, rather than the traditional points.

One is is its primary resistance which purely determines the maximum number of amperes DC that can flow into the coil during the charging process.  As I stated before, you can work out this "amps"  figure by using Ohms Law calculation, as long as you know what the DC resistance is of the primary winding of the coil you have.  Measuring this with a cheap multimeter is pretty hard & suspect, but a good quality multimeter should be able to read resistances down that low.  You could just feed 12 volts to the coil., for a short time, & measure the DC amperes, using the DC current range on a multimeter, but most of the low to medium priced multimeters, only have max. 10A DC current ranges.  Any ignition coil with a primary resistance lower than about 1.2 ohms, will draw more than 10A DC current, whilst charging.

The second spec. you see for ignition coil primaries, is the "Inductance, usually specified in mH (Milli Henries).  This inductance figure determines how long it takes to charge the coil up, before you can trigger it, to collapse & create a spark in the secondary circuit.

The resistor in series with the primary winding of the ignition coil has an history story behind it.  Yes it does reduce the current switched by the points in older dizzies.  However, that is not the true reason for its introduction.

The original ignition coils were designed for use at 12+ volts, which is what most coils run at, when the car is driving.  However, in colder climatic parts of the world where great strain is put on batteries, during cold starts on a wintry morning, the battery volts would drop to say 9V, under starter motor high cranking current load.  Just at the time when you want the car to start, the ignition coil is only fed with 9 volts, & hence provides its lowest output.  I believe the first Rollas were provided with 12 volt coils like that.

So some bright spark, decided to design & manufacture the coil to operate with full output at just 9 volts.  Cars then starts, but when driving, the coil is subjected to 12+ volts & overheats. Solution; put a resistor is series with the 9V coil, such that it drops 3 volts across the resistor, when the car is driving, & everyone is happy.  The resistor is short circuited whist turning over the starter motor, but is placed in circiuit, as soon as the car starts.  100s of thousands of cars were designed that way thereafter.  Problem is there are lots of ignition coils around that have no markings on them, so you don't know whether they designed for 9V or 12 volt. Simply, a 9V coil requires an external resistor, whist a 12V coil doesn't.

The popular GT40 coil, which many Rolla members use, is clearly marked.  There is a model GT12, (12 volt) & a model GT12R (9V) which requires a resistor.  This is clearly stamped on the coil body. 

However, many use the GT12R with the lower resistance, or other 9V coils, with electronic ignitors able to handle the extra current drawn by the lower resistance coil. This is fine, if you are using a "smart" ignitor, that is sensing the drawn current, & switches it off, as soon as the coil is saturated (fully charged), but not good, if you have a dumb ignitor.  Those playing around with programmable ignition ECUs, often get into trouble when setting dwell periods too long. The dwell period, should never be set any longer that the time it takes for the coil to be charged.  Lots of ignitors die an early death as result of not understanding the implications of matching the coil characteristics to the ignitors maximum design criteria & specs.

I have been building my own ignitors for some time, using the original Bosch chip, (BIP373).  These you can buy from Megasquirt (DIY AutoTune) for around $ 10.00.  I've never lost one yet. They have thermal shutdown if they get too hot, & are almost indestructible.  They can be driven from a 5V signal, & all you need to do, is mount them on a good heatsink.

So there is a lttle bit more to putting coils & ignitors together than meets the eye, but with a bit of care, you can obtain all the advantages of precise electronic triggering & ignition, & still have the reliability.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

  

Edited by Banjo

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oh yes i know all about the ballast resistor and all that, the resistor I'm talking about and as shown in that diagram is actually different, its. a resistor between the coil positive and the igniter. i think to stop the igniter burning up. isnt it just 2 transistors??

 

so where u saying the gt40 is the one that ticks all the boxes? i like the sound of that because there is lots of into out there about that coil.

however I'm not convinced thats the one for me, it is a 3 ohm primary when the stock igniter one is 1.5. that means it will prosuce less spark. ive got a 3 ohm coil here, the brazilian bosch one, and it gave a weak spark. i need 1.5 ohms.

 

wait ive just worked it out.

gt40 is ok. the test figures in the book for this dizzy are for a coil fitted with a ballast resistor. so that extra ballast would have taken the total resistance to about 3 ohms, like the gt40 is on its own.

so my old bosch brazilian was probably giving poor spark due to a poor secondary winding. its only giving 8k ohms and igniter requires 10-15 k ohns according to the specs in the 4k book.

 

now i cannot find any specs online for the secondary resistance of the gt40. everything talks aboutvthe gt40r. my god this ia the most difficult thing ive ever tried to inveatigate.

juat tell me, whats a gt40 secondary measurement aupposed to be.

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found it... here.

http://www.derek.com.au/ignitioncoils.html

table towards tge bottom of page.

8-10 k ohms so this is exactly the same as the junk i had in there before. so its not good enough. Its going to give the same reaukt as the bosxh which ive proven is a fail. shouldnt i be looking for a larger secondary with such a large primary?? 3 ohms primary and an 8kohm secondary is weak.

I'm not yet convinced that the gt 40 will give enough spark.

i just don't know enough about how this shit works and i don't think I'm capable of learning. 

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Hi Jeremy,

                   Let me explain it another way. The primary & secondary resistances have really nothing to do with whether a spark generated by that coil is weak or strong.

Yes coils can break down, but I'm not talking about used ignition coils; I'm referring to new coils.

The coil with a primary resistance of 3.0 ohms can deliver the exact same energy as a coil with 1.5 ohms. It just takes longer for the coil to charge up.  Yes, if you have a V8 doing 10,000 rpm, you have very little time between firings, to charge up the coil for the next firing, so may need a low primary ohm coil to make it charge quicker.  We are talking here about a 4K engine with half as many cylinders, and half that sort of revs. It has plenty of time to charge up a coil with a 3.0 ohm primary.

GT40, no ballast resistor… 14V / 3.4 ohms = 4.1 amps
GT40R 1.4 ohm with 1.6 ohm ballast resistor… 14V / 3 ohms = 4.6 amps

As far as the secondary resistance goes, the voltage developed by the coil, is only as much as needed to jump across the spark plug gap. It you close the gap right up, a spark can jump it with probably 2-5K volts.  In a working engine, under pressure more volts are needed to jump the gap, but any coil capable of around 20K volts will suffice for our humble Rollas.

It's only extreme performance cars that may need potential voltages like 30K - 40K volts to fire a spark.

I have a little spark gap here on the bench, you can buy on ebay for less than $ 5.00, that allows you to increase the gap until it won't spark.  The rough scale on the side tells you what the voltage is to jump that gap.  At 30K volts the gap is 20mm wide !

image.png.9eb282da505a9d0f41d215c3d8adce09.png

The indications of a good strong coil, is one that produces a spark that is bright blue/purple & white in colour.  A weak coil, is one that produces a very yellowy spark colour.

Yes, there are weak coils.  One of the big dangers with coils is operating them without a spark gap, which can lead to breakdown inside on the secondary winding, which has a lot of turns of fairly fine wire.

Don't forget there other things in the secondary of the ignition coil that can create weak sparks.  The main culprit is bad HV dizzy leads.

P.S.  As a rule of thumb, a good coil should produce a clean sharp bright purple spark with an average dwell time (charging time) of about 3 milliseconds.

If you are getting a weak spark, I'd be looking at other things in your system,  than just the coils specs.

Cheers Banjo 

 

Edited by Banjo
  • Upvote 1

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Banjo, you are the God of ignition systems!

I just had to go & measure of course..

The Girls Beast with the 4AGE has primary 0.6ohm & secondary 14Kohm, coil came with the motor.

The Hoonicorn with the 4K & electronic dizzy has the original coil in, primary 1.4ohm & secondary 7.2Kohm. Still runs the ballast too.

They both run fine as far as I can tell, and hopefully will last a long time!

--------------------

You're right Jeremy, 14Kohm. I've just come back & edited it.

 

 

 

Edited by altezzaclub
Typo

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wtf, 1.4Kohms secondary. that is stuffed mate.
u sure u don't mean 14 kohms? ( i think ur reading that on the wrong scale)

Banjo, i need one of those spark testers.
the ohms I'm enquiring about is the secondary. thats where the problem lies. if the secondary resistance is small, like 8k, then it will have a weaker spark than the same primary resistance coil with an 11 kohm secondary. that i know is a fact.

I'm not worried about the primary now, i know that the current one is wrong, but now when i go to find the 3 ohm one, its going to have to have a high secondary resistance or it will be weak.

 

18 hours ago, Banjo said:

As far as the secondary resistance goes, the voltage developed by the coil, is only as much as needed to jump across the spark plug gap. It you close the gap right up, a spark can jump it with probably 2-5K volts. 

no, i don't think i agree with that. a spark isnt just a spark. a stronger power requirement, ()more fuel and air) requires more spark. If i go and make the gap smaller, I'm jsut moving the problem from the coil to the gap. it needs a 0.8mm gap with correct power. 

I can actually see visually, the weaknesss of the spark with the the bosch coil here which is a 3ohm  - 8kohm.
Do you think perhaps it just may be dying without showing a bad reading perhaps? simply because its a shit bosch blue coil ( they get a bad wrap according to my research, but so do the orange GT40s with electronic ignition)

All i know, is with the blue coil, i had 3 ohms primary (no resistor neccesary) and 8kohms secondary and spark was crap.
SO hopefully altezza means his GT40 is 14K ohms. if so , i want one.

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Hi Jeremy,

                  I didn't suggest that you should reduce your spark plug gap.  I was just pointing out that a coil secondary only produces a HV voltage with just enough to jump the gap, and spark, based on the conditions in the cylinder.  You could use a coil that has the capacity to produce 30K volts, but that 30K volts would not be achieved unless the gap + cylinder conditions required it.

Cheers Banjo.

P.S.   In your case without something to test the coils ability to produce & sustain a spark, the only way you are going to fix your issue, is by substitution with a known good coil.  As I said previously; coils do fail, for a number of well documented reasons.

Edited by Banjo

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Hi Jeremy, 

                   There are a number of Hall Effect, points replacement modules like the AccuSpark, PerTronix, & the Hot Spark one, you mentioned previously.  All do the same thing, basically.

http://www.accuspark.co.uk/

https://hot-spark.com/

http://www.pertronix.com.au/

If you go & read the Hot spark website, you will note there are constant warnings thereon, about fitting coils to their system, with less than 3.0 ohms primary winding resistance.  That is because the electronic switching device can only handle a max of 4.5A, before thermal considerations come into play.  They also advise that the alternator voltage should be 13.7V max.

If it is 13.7 or above, they suggest fitting the extra 1.4 ohm resistor, between + Batt & the power feed to the module, to reduce the voltage supply to the module.  This resistor has nothing to do with reducing the coil voltage, as the coil primary current, does pass through this resistor at all.

If you look at the PerTronix website, you will see that module can handle supply volts up to 16 volts.

On the Pertonix website, they suggest 3.0 ohm primary coils, for 4 & 6 cylinder cars, & 1.5 ohm, for 8 cylinder cars, where there is less time to charge the coil between firings, & therefore need greater amps.

They also advise that under no circumstances should high performance coils with primary coils resistance < 1.0 be used.

I've never used the Pertronix gear, but on paper, the Flame-Thrower coil (wonderful descriptive name) looks like a good product. Produced in 1.5 ohm & 3.0 ohm versions with oil filled & epoxy filled versions.  They claim 40,000 Volts HT voltage, which allows you to widen, the spark plug gaps.  Interestingly, the Flame-Thrower secondary resistance is 10.6K ohms.

They seem reasonably priced on-line.  If anyone on Rollaclub has used a Flame-Thrower, I'd love to hear from them.

P.S.  The only issue with using coils that can produce very high HT voltages, is that your HT components like dizzy cap & rotor, & HT leads to spark plugs must be in very good condition, or you can suffer break down  & leakage of HT to ground.

On a dark night, lift your bonnet, with the engine running, & see if you can spot any blueish glows around dizzy & the spark plug leads.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

 

Edited by Banjo

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yep i have read all that about the three ohm primary minimun requirement and completely agree to change to that.

quote

"Flame-Thrower coil (wonderful descriptive name) looks like a good product. Produced in 1.5 ohm & 3.0 ohm versions with oil filled & epoxy filled versions.  They claim 40,000 Volts HT voltage, which allows you to widen, the spark plug gaps.  Interestingly, the Flame-Thrower secondary resistance is 10.6K ohms."

bingo, thats the one i want. 3 ohm 10k ohm You champion. bit of a cheesy name haha but those specs are the first ive seen that some way match what is required.

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