Wild K Engine Project...

[camerondownunder88]

Trev I had never heard of them doing cranks but hey you learn some thing everyday :wink:

 

As for the project. 3K can rev to 10,000RPM. Felix is right 5K the valves are mmmm small for the motor so reving hard might be an issue. Now if your planning to throw cash at it Put gemini valves in those valves with mods do fit. But you could always run boost? That cam the shop does for 10,000RPM is a race cam. You would want to track down say the TRD gear set for a K gear box to keep it in the right rev range for it to work good. But in traffic this cam wouldn't be fun.

 

Also try looking at 1G conrods. Now I know 1G rods and pistons fit a 4K and 5K use a 4K crak so if those rods have the right sized gudgeon pin maybe try them. BUT they will be a bit short as in a 4K there shorter and a 5K could also be even more shorter. I haven't fully looked into this yet.

 

I say if you can get the matching done cheap go for it. Assemble your self so you save $$ on the labor and buy well second hand parts. sit on forums etc get say used 4age con rods when some one up grades for cheap. As a stock 4age rod should hold high revs and compression EASY.

 

But also a side note. 4age pistons are lighter than stock 5K items. And the gudgeon pin is higher up in the piston so there better balanced shall we say or less top heavy. So they will rev better being lighter etc. So go with these will be a good option.

 

Also when you assemble you will notice 4age rods are narrow on the crank don't worry. I know of some in a rally car 5K 2 years old raced all day no issues. Yet I have seen people weld the sides up to get metal there. Personally I wouldn't weld them as could wreck the metal structure etc. But this rally motor had the extra oil hole drilled in the crank as oil pressure will help hold them still.

 

Also push rods you will have options. 3K head use chev lifters and A12 datto rods. If you use a Toyota 3F land cruiser lifter you need moded stck 4K rods OR dished piston 4K rods. I used in my 5K steel rocker posts and moded rocker arms and moded 4K push rods on a shaved head and they just fit in so you have 2 options.

 

Also I am going to make a warm 5K for my KE15. The tacho in it stops at 8 grand. So I will probably make this my limit as after that it is really a race motor and on the road is pushing shit up hill. The cam I can recommend would be one that has peak power NO higher than about 7500RPM.

 

My plan is when all my parts are ready is to run a SC14 on a 5K to push the air in and help it along. But if you look out parts will come cheap. I got a 4K crank like new a stock cam I will get re ground I bought a REBUILT 5K (shaved head also for extra boogie) for $30 once running electronic dizzy and have now come across a big port 3K head to decompress the motor so I will run this and mot worry really about porting. I plan to do it cheap. I budget small as it is just a corolla. My cam shop charges $100 for a regrind. I can balance knife edge etc the crank and flywheel at work. I will do the cylinder head my self. And assemble my self and I have most of the parts from super charger setup to motor ready to go bar a spare 5K block now. So pending your time frame do it slowly you will get there int eh end cheap. If you want this over night will cost more and as others have said at that rate buy Kangaroosas 5K or madrollers 7K. So just play it smart.

 

Also a small piece of info I want. does anyone know if the 4K sump is the same as the 5K sump? Or have pics of them together. I have a spare 4K sump and if it fits plan to modd it for my 5K project so this info would be appreciated as my 5K sump is on the motor ATM in the car..LOL

 

Cheers

Cameron

[trd]

you would be better off buying the 20mm pin pistons as they can handle about 10000rpm standard & there cheaper than the 18mm ones, by about $150. you do have to shave the block when fitting 4age pistons & rods, CC your head & block to find the right amount to shave of it. as for a up right engine - you need the manifolds & base plate, engine mounts, u have to get extractors make, modify the sump, modify the g/box x member & bend the gear stick. is a great conversion to do but finding the parts (mainly manifolds )is bloody hard, does make alot more power though.

 

 

Cam - the 5k sumps where mainly for vans & they don't fit the cars that well, most 4k ones are the same but i do know that some early 4k sumps were different. anything ke70 & upwards should bolt onto the 5k - thats what iam using on mine

[camerondownunder88]

TRD mate you are always a bloody big help :wink:

 

As for the upright K motor the reason so I am told that they slant is in the first KE10 they tried up right but it hit the bonnet so it was tilted over. Not sure if this is true but.

 

As for my 5K the sump on it don't know if it is stock after the rebuild but if fits in my car fit but the back of it has been hammered up co clear the cross member so if that was the mod your talking about then yes i runa van sump still.

 

Also an upright K motor will have better oil drain from the cyclinder head also. and the higher the angle of attack intot eh cylinder head from the intake runners the more torque is produced I have read in neumrous books on porting etc so I think torque is gained when uprighting a K motor as the runners are pretty much lying down when slanted but gain anice angle when upright.

 

As for manifold TRD upright kit might be hard to find but if you run EFI from a 7K and custom plenum I wouldnt see an issue with the manifold part.

 

Cheers

Cameron

 

P.S. Why not ill look in the EPC tonight and find out part numbers for sumps and post up so we can confirm 4K to 5K sumps.

[trd]

hi cam. i think your right about them hitting the bonnet. sounds like you've still got the van sump. your right about the angle of the ports & the shape of the manifolds - gives you a better attack angle on the valve. ive seen the 7k efi setup, not to bad at all. i did have the 5k upright efi when i built it, but just couldn't get the perforance out of it, so we bolted on a set of dellortos & all the power came back. its got alot to do with how the fuel is delivered - a droplet of fuel carrys alot cooler charge than the spray from the injector. they both have there +s & -s.

 

i take it you got the epc? isn't it a great thing. no more toyota screwing up your parts order, you can do it all yourself. lol

Edited November 30, 2007 by trd

[Felix]

The 5k sumps I've had are identical to late dished 4k sumps, they are larger than the early 4k ones. No problems with fitment into a ke1x with the ones I've had, and my motor sits lower than stock with a modded mount on on side.

 

Not sure if they are the same as van ones... You have to remember that a lot of 5k's came into the country as jap import motors, so unless the motor came out of a van, you can't really be sure of the motors original application.

 

The main reason the upright motors go harder is because the inlet manifold has a straighter, less restrictive path into the head.

 

As for rpm levels, a 3k is capable of a lot more revs than what say a 5k is. Do some research on rod ratios and piston acceleration. Also you have to keep in mind that at 9k+ rpm a 5k will need a proportional increase in valve area (over a 3k) to meet airflow requirements. Think offset valve guides, thinner valve stems, and multi-angled oversized valves, plus porting and flow bench time.

[raff_gsr]

fantastic info there trd, cheers!

 

 

Well i'll be custom making my inlet manifold to suit my twin webers so i guess i'll accomodate uprighting the engine in my designs. id love to get the 20mm pistons but ive already got the 18mm pistons :wink:

 

The 3k will definately outrev the 5k due to the stroke, i guess its just a question as to how much the 5k can rev.

 

Now this talk about valves, what is the usual go with them? i recall someone saying gemini valves? whats the deal there? also the double valve springs, do I source them from a holden 202? any ideas for stronger pushrods?

 

cheers to everyone once again!

[trd]

if you use the 4age rods & pistons you can buy cheap forged pistons, arp rod bolts etc, also the 4age arp flywheel bolts go straight onto the k crankshaft & you can use the arp main stud kit if you grind about 3mm off the bottom of the stud, the one beside the oil pump you have to cut off flush. you can bore the 5k out quite large aswell, i know of one which is out to 83mm without any problems. my own one is out to 82mm & has been to 9500rpm before.

[raff_gsr]

damn 83 mm! thats huge! my pistons are just 81mm so standard 4age diameter, and 40 thou overbore on the 5k. what about head bolts, are there any really strong ones to handle high compression? also you said that i will need to modify the sump, what do I need to do to it?

[camerondownunder88]

Hi,

With the head bolts you can get the early K motor ones they have a thicker shank so more metal can only be a good thing. Madroller uses these and look at what his motor cops..LOL

 

As for a sump. Just baffles. Going around corners fast oil can slosh etc So just baffles to keep it there.

 

As for Gemini valves Redwarf is the man to talk to there. I know they can be made to fit that is all.

 

As for the ARP bolts for the fly wheel yes any ARP studs you can get makes life a lot less stress full knowing there holding it together. Also the Cylinder head bolts that hold the rocker posts down I can recommend getting some nice strong studs. I have had to change and play with my 5K and other K motor cams a lot when solving problems etc. I find after a few times in and out the bolts tend to start bringing the soft alloy cylinder head threads with it so a nice stud there and a bolt will prevent this as the bolt will come off every time and not disturb the cylinder head.

 

Also TRD the ARP stud near the oil pump do you mean cut it off square so it is dead flat or did you mean different? All the studs are they just about 3mm longer? As I have never heard of this being done and if the engine is being build and there is a lathe handy you can take them all down 3mm evenly fast and accurately. Also I believe ARP big end bolts for a set for a 4age rods is $80 so not to bad considering.

 

Also to use holden 202 dual springs reason is there plentiful and well all you really need to do is grind the valve spring seat down in the head more so it can fit in as they are longer.

 

Also felix you mentioned off set valve guides. Can you enlighten us more here? Now one of my 3K big port heads has been converted to the later ke70 valve guides BUT the bottom of the guides stops pretty much as soon as it enters the ports. I take it they were cut back when installed (redwarf can you shed info here)? Is this what you were talking about?

 

Also I think it was 4K-U the dished piston 4K th valves in it have thinner stems or it is the same size but they taper off much nicer and faster onto the valves surface so air flow is improved. I know one K motor got better valves in this design area just can't remember what one. So if anyone knows post it up. As I think it was the 4K-U

 

But TRD what valves are you running in the rally car?

 

Cheers

Cameron

[trd]

yeh i didn't think you could take them out that far but he did & its in a rally car. as for the head bolts iam still using the standard ones at 10.5 & no problems, haven't tried the 4age ones yet to see if they fit. modifing the sump is a bitch of a job for the upright engine, had to cut off the bottom half, make a new one, then fit all the baffling to it. i remember someone telling me once they used mk1 cortina inlet manifolds to upright a k engine. don't know if it was true but worth a look. as for valves i just use the standard jap toyota ones 36mm i think. never had a problem with them same with the toyota pushrods.

what are you planning to do with this engine?

[camerondownunder88]

Also you should consider the rest of the drive train for this build..LOL

 

If it is in a KE30. Get a TE47 GT model (the TE47 non GT has a smaller diff) diff center. They bolt into the same diff housing etc use the same axles but are 2 pinion and a 6.7inch Diff where the stock KE30 one is like 6 inches.

 

The part number for the whole carrier out of the TE47 GT is:

41110-20260

Ratio is 4.3:1

 

As for the gear box try to find a K to T will be all bolt into your KE30 then and the part number for the bell housing is:

31111-12010

 

Or the part number for a T50 and the K bell housing hanging off it from Toyota is:

33020-12110

 

Also TRD do you find your car chokes at all while running the stock JDM valves? And do you run a 5K or a different K head?

 

 

Cheers

Cameron

Edited November 30, 2007 by camerondownunder88

[TRD ke70]

my own one is out to 82mm & has been to 9500rpm before.

 

time for super glue on the rev limiter, bro!!!! :wink:

[raff_gsr]

planning to drive her on the street, but hammer in the hills alot, hopefully she loves revs, cos i do haha!

 

have you got any photos of the sump you made? and just of your engine in general :wink:

[trd]

what you don't know you don't have to fix

[camerondownunder88]

Unplug the tacho for the win :wink:..LOL

 

raff_gsr ask Kangaroosa to post up the measurements of his sump baffles also. He has pics of his sump in his for sale thread.

 

Cam