Jump to content
Viterbo

5K Engine Starter issue

Recommended Posts

I've been having a problem with my starter for too long and have no idea of what can be the issue.

A lot of times it's impossible to start the car when hot. For example, if I go to a gas station I turn off the car, after refueling and paying I try to start it and a lot of times it just cranks reaaaaaally slowly or doesn't crank at all. If I let it rest for 10/15 minutes it cranks and starts like everything is fine.

Cleaned all the terminals on the earth wires to the engine block (there's 2 or 3 of them), the starter was recently disassembled, cleaned on the inside and brushes were replaced.

Can it be battery related? I've got no space to place a bigger one to test it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members dont see this ad

Heat related?? Extractors right by it?  I made a small heat-shield for mine, a piece of thin stainless steel (for reflection) in front of a bit of 5mm cement board. (for insulation to stop the heat that goes through the stainless steel) The stainless came from an old microwave cover.

I slid it in between the starter and the extractors and wired it onto the extractors.

 

New heatshield on A.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow !  A heatshield might well assist.  There are a couple of tight bends there, that would not lend the extractors to be too free flowing, I would think.

Have you ever run it hard at night, then quickly pulled up, on a dark road, & lifted the bonnet, to see if there are any "red spots" visible on those extractor pipes ?

I've never placed a temperature probe on a starter motor, to see how hot the body gets.  If you can get hold of a cheap hand held electronic temperature guage, with a remote sensor on a lead, it might be well worth the effort.  If you do place a heat shield there, it could provide you with before & after readings, to see how effective it is.

Cheers Banjo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..or a webcam under the bonnet hooked to a laptop on the passenger's seat, which is what I used.

 

I wrapped the first set of extractors fully, and they melted the pipes where they ran parallel down to the 4-1 junction. This was hauling heavy loads up steep forestry tracks at low speeds, the absolute worst nightmare.  The camera showed they glowed at 100kph, but not hot enough to spall the metal off or melt them out of shape like the forestry work did.

The second set I part wrapped & left that straight run open, which is why I fitted a heat shield. These look like the old extractors as I was modelling stuff up.

Those look like bike carb inlets Viterbo..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think the extractors glow, and even if they do that's not the issue here. I have a gas station like 2kms from home with no possibility to drive hard on the way there and I had that issue going there more than one time. On the last time I had to push the car and start it in 2nd gear.

As for the extractors, the bends they have were made to ensure equal length on the tight space on the engine bay (left hand drive, issues with steering column and all that).

And yes, it's running on bike carbs!

@Banjo check your PM's because you have something there since January or so 😅

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"And yes, it's running on bike carbs! "

Ooohh.. nice!  Have you checked the mixture with an O2 sensor reader?  I've always wondered how well they stick to 14.7.

If it always starts OK on first start when cold, then it must be temperature related somehow. That's the only change really, it should start easier the second time from the battery being more charged and the oil being thinner and the metal in the combustion chamber being warm. I know windings can wear out as well as just burn out, their resistance goes up and electric motors lose power, but the only way to check is to fit a different starter motor you know is working fine. I haven't seen the resistance of a starter motor written down anywhere, otherwise you could measure yours.

Does it have a starter relay or is the power for the solenoid going straight through the key? Meh- that usually just gives a click and doesn't turn the starter motor, rather than turns it slowly.

Well, the solution will be interesting!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't have the chance to monitorize the mixture, I'm relying on behaviour and plug color 😄

I plan to dyno it and check everything but it runs really sweet!

 

The only related issue I have on cold is the battery drains quickly but that must be battery related (5 year old battery, 40Ah/300A or 45Ah/300).

I'm gonna sort some kind of heat shield and see how it goes. I might also plug a new strong ground wire...

The signal I think goes directly from the key.

The cranking is like a really advanced ignition that brakes the engine rotation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hummm !  I really don't think that it is the starter motor.   To eliminate the starter motor as a culprit, or anything electrical in between, you could simply run a reasonably heavy wire, directly to the starter motor solenoid connection, & connect this to a heavy duty starter button or momentary switch, in the cabin, with the button fed from another wire directly to the battery positive, via an in-line fuse. Then just put the ignition switch in the run position, & push the button to start the engine.  If the problem goes away, then the issue is in the ignition switch or starter relay.

If it is still there, it may well be, as you have just described; an excess advance, after restarting the engine when it is up to temperature.

What sort of ignition system, is currently controlling the engine ?

P.S.  Might be time for a new battery.  2-3 years is a pretty common life expectancy out of a new battery these days.  5 years, you are getting close to terminal.

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Francisco,

                       As you are still using the stock standard dizzy, with vacuum & centrifugal advance; where have you plumbed in the vacuum advance tubing, into your 4 x Bike carb induction setup ?  Could that be effecting the initial advance at start up, after the engine has already warmed up /

Cheers Banjo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly, one of the runners has a port so I can run vacuum advance from there, which puts total advance at idle around 25º. I already thought of it... never tried to unplug it tho

1.thumb.jpg.39808a5a1e0326bc227f91eec9e88cd6.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Francisco,

                      Simple enough to check if it is excessive advance after warm up, that is causing your starting issue.  Next time it won't restart,  just jump out & clamp the vacuum hose with a little "G" clamp, or something similar, & see if it makes any change to the restarting behaviour.

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could pull the idle advance back to 5deg or even zero and see if it makes a starting difference.

25deg is a bit low for total advance I thought, don't they go out to 35deg?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Altezza it's not 25deg total advance, it's 25deg at idle with vacuum connected. I don't know what total advance is because my timing light is very simple and I can't read timing after it passes the scale on the timing cover

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...