Engine To Suit...

[Whatsausername?]

Hey all...

 

So i'm kind of stuck, Everytime I get close to choosing an engine I find something else that takes my fancy! :bash:

 

I think i've found my FINAL choice!

 

#1: What I would like to know is with an SR20DET would I have to use an SR cross-member or can I use the KE with mods?

#2: With the gearboxes, Do I use an SR20 (Read that they might not line up with the KE's gearbox tunnel hole too well) On that same not they mentioned a RB gearbox would fit the SR20 as well as the KE gearbox hole...True? Reccomendations please!

 

*R31 stock gearbox???? :hmm:

 

So am I best off getting a Halfcut, Or get the engine seperate (Cause I will be buying different coilovers anyway)?

 

OR be meainstream and settle for a 4age like EVERYONE else? :no2:

 

Cheers in advance! :happy: :happy: :happy:

[irokin]

1. Whatever works, have a look at what others have done (This is Research!).

 

2. Never heard of any RB box (there's about 4+ in the Skyline alone) that bolts up to an SR20. There's adapter kits for the R33 RB25DET and Z32 VG30DET gearbox available in Australia (both of those gearboxes are huge, capable of 600hp). I would budget somewhere around $5000 for a start to finish gearbox conversion. Just use the standard SR box, unless you drive like a complete idiot or make 250kW+ they're fine.

 

 

Get a half cut, it will make life much much easier. You can do it piece by piece but its a pain in the arse (and expensive) hunting for the missing pieces. I did it without a halfcut but I had a network of contacts in order to find parts, it was still considerably more expensive though.

 

 

4A-GEs, no comment :ninja:

[Whatsausername?]

1. Whatever works, have a look at what others have done (This is Research!).

 

2. Never heard of any RB box (there's about 4+ in the Skyline alone) that bolts up to an SR20. There's adapter kits for the R33 RB25DET and Z32 VG30DET gearbox available in Australia (both of those gearboxes are huge, capable of 600hp). I would budget somewhere around $5000 for a start to finish gearbox conversion. Just use the standard SR box, unless you drive like a complete idiot or make 250kW+ they're fine.

 

 

Get a half cut, it will make life much much easier. You can do it piece by piece but its a pain in the arse (and expensive) hunting for the missing pieces. I did it without a halfcut but I had a network of contacts in order to find parts, it was still considerably more expensive though.

 

 

4A-GEs, no comment :ninja:

Yea I've done my research, just thought i'd double check and make sure it is right for me.....So just the stock standard SR box with the SR20DET would go hard enough you reckon? (I can get my hands on an R31 gearbox easyily from friends etc etc...) Any certain driveshaft to go with the SR, which will be leading to a stock R31 Diff?....

 

What else can I salvage from the halfcut besides Engine and gearbox? :/

[irokin]

So just the stock standard SR box with the SR20DET would go hard enough you reckon? (I can get my hands on an R31 gearbox easyily from friends etc etc...) Any certain driveshaft to go with the SR, which will be leading to a stock R31 Diff?....

 

What's your goals with it (power and types of events, drift, drag etc)? I've seen guys demolish the standard gearbox with standard power but driving like an arse at the track. I've seen them take 220kW driven by a completely incompetent dick and survive on the street.

 

An RB30 box might possibly work with the powertune kit but I wouldn't want to put any money on it. From what I understand though the R31 gearbox is essentially the same as the RB20 gearbox and aren't any stronger than the SR box. It'd be a whole lot of money for no gain.

 

http://powertune.com.au/pta-adapterkit.html

 

 

Tailshaft will need to be custom made.

 

What else can I salvage from the halfcut besides Engine and gearbox? :/

 

Loom, ECU, AFM, Ignitor, radiator (maybe), instrument cluster, other bits and bobs. Everything else you could sell off to recoup costs.

[Whatsausername?]

I am wanting to get into drift, It's wicked fun and there style is just hella clean...

 

Well i'll try it with the SR box just so I'm not going out and spending $1600 for no gain.

 

I have seen some engine packages but I think it's only the engine, Loom, ECU and maybe some other bits, Worth getting???

[kickn5k]

Just buy a s13 and be done with it!!! Your not having to deal with the takumi tax on parts and car itself.

It's been done, too many cheap parts.

 

 

Stu.

Edited September 11, 2011 by kickn5k

[ke70dave]

rule number 1 to complex engine conversions:

 

you are not going to get away with a decent conversion, without some fabrication. don't try and fart about trying different parts because "You heard on the internet that this bolts with that"

 

get a welder, and weld up some custom made engine mounts, have a google around, its easy to do. the bloke who put the evo engine in his ke70 had some really nice photos showing how it is done.

 

this will sort out your engine and gearbox mounts.

 

as for the gearbox.

 

rule number 2:

 

search search search before posting threads.

 

i googled "sr20 into ke70 using rb20 gearbox"

 

very first link, found this

 

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/showthread.php/22433-SR20-to-RB20-box-in-KE70-Let-the-hate-rain-down...

 

so the rb20 box doesn't bolt to the SR, you need to switch the bell housings over (should be able to get a busted sr20 box for the bellhousing for free/cheap)

 

the rb20 box is used so that the shifter is in about the same place as standard ke70. if you go with the sr20det gearbox, the shifter is a bit further back (meaning you have to cut the shifter hole a bit bigger, and the gearstick interferes with your hand brake)

 

when we did ca18det into my mates ae86, we used standard box and had the above issues, but it worked out well for him as he is super tall, so sat really far back (extra long steering wheel spacer).

 

the 4age is an easy and great conversion, there is a reason why everyone does it, it works, and it works well.

 

sr20det Silvias are so cheap now, unless you are hell bent on stuffing around putting one in a ke70 (engine, differential, fuel system, tailshaft, intercooler piping, wiring)which will potentially cost about twice as much as a decent s13, juts get an s13!

[kickn5k]

As ke70dave said the 4age is a proven thing. But if you decide you want to up the power it's a bit more expensive.

Bang for buck for me would give two options. CA or SR?

But if I were building a race car(any make 4cyl rwd) I'd be choosing the SR for the weight of them if anything. Your going to find a huge range of aftermarket go fast/driveline options.

For getting one in right, there are two really nice SR KE3x/5x's on here. You should check some rides threads on how they did the mounts for engine and box. Conversions take a bit of time and coin but atleast you'll know the car inside and out.

Irokin is bang on with a front cut. Even if you don't use all the parts you can recoup some of the cost Selling the parts off.

 

Stu.

[Whatsausername?]

Haha, Bit late for an S13 now, Iv'e already got and started pulling apart Carol (My KE70)....Besides, I don't really like the look of the S13's that much and I just want something small (For starters) haha :wink:

 

I've done a shitload of research, I've found a thread explaining in almost every detail possible an SR20DET KE70 conversion, It's a clean looking ride and seemed simple enough, If I get stuck I've got threads to fall back on (I would with a 4age as well but anyway)....And if I buy a halfcut I will have everything I need and some, I will sell off the parts I don't need and use that to buy parts i'll need to replace etc etc

 

And halfcut 4age's are completly stock aren't they? If I buy a halfcut 4age, won't I need to replce the cams, pistons etc etc to make up for the power difference I would be loosing out on if I don't buy an SR?

[Whatsausername?]

And sorry if this is a stupid question and feel free to call me a noob, but is an RB20 gearbox what comes in the stock R31 skylines???....I've tried researching it but I couldn't get any answers, I think I was using the wrong letter/numbers etc etc (It's been a long day) :bash:

[caibs]

pretty sure the rb20de, rb20det & rb25de has the "little" or box, commonly known as a mf5 box which is behind the stock rb30e in r31's and vl's. the rb20det one is a bit stronger by a bees dick, i think it has slightly different synchro's in it. but yes, they are pretty much the same.

 

similarly, the mx7 (vl turbo box) is slightly weaker than the rb25det box.

 

rb25det has the larger box, with either push(r33) or pull(r34) type clutch. internally same as the early rb26dett boxes, obviously they have a transfer case. also same as the vg30dett box, however these have remote shifters.

 

if anyone knows better, feel free to correct me, i'm *fairly* sure thats right though.

[irokin]

internally same as the early rb26dett boxes

 

Pretty good round up of the Skyline gearboxes. I think the BNR32 and BCNR33 gearboxes have the same gearset as the R33 RB25 but appear to cope with much less power, probably due to the extra load from the 4wd system.

 

 

I've been going through this gearbox drama myself for several years. I've considered PPG/PAR/OS Giken/Quaife gearsets but they're very expensive to purchase and maintain. Nismo S15 gearbox, expensive, unproven IMO, shitty dual mass flywheel. I've considered the R33 and Z32 gearbox swaps and I feel this is still the best avenue. My mechanic disagrees though and feels these boxes will sap about 50hp to spin due to their massive size. He does have a very good point so I've gone back to looking at how I can make the standard gearbox last for a little while longer.

 

The big weak spot in the SR boxes is 3rd gear. If you want to keep them alive you need to be gentle with it. Definitely no clutch kicking in 3rd gear, I guarantee you will kill it very quickly doing this.

 

With the existing gearbox the only thing we're doing to keep it going is running either Redline lightweight shockproof OR Royal Purple max gear. People have had great success with the Redline oil though its designed for dog engagement gearboxes and I've heard reports of glazed syncros. Not a problem for me on the track, but something to consider in a street driven car.

 

With my standby gearbox I'm currently planning to build my recipe is the following:

 

Late model S14 gearbox, hopefully out of an unmodified car. These have a better center plate to keep the oil in the front section of the housing where its needed.

Send Gears and center plate for cryo treatment. I'm still a little skeptical of it but the results seem to speak for themselves. A mates about to put 400kw through a standard GTR gearbox that's been cryod. Normally that would be enough to kill the poor thing so I'll see how that goes.

Then I'm considering shot peening the gears and adding a low friction coating of some sort.

Professional rebuild with ALL new consumables (snap rings, spring pins, syncros, bearings)

I might consider a billet main shaft too (if they fit with standard gears) just to help support 3rd gear better.

 

All up hopefully ~$3000 and happy to live with 350-400hp or much less if you're drifting.

[kickn5k]

Send Gears and center plate for cryo treatment. I'm still a little skeptical of it but the results seem to speak for themselves. A mates about to put 400kw through a standard GTR gearbox that's been cryod. Normally that would be enough to kill the poor thing so I'll see how that goes.

Then I'm considering shot peening the gears and adding a low friction coating of some sort.

Professional rebuild with ALL new consumables (snap rings, spring pins, syncros, bearings)

I might consider a billet main shaft too (if they fit with standard gears) just to help support 3rd gear better.

 

Have you tried Modena engineering they make gear sets. Do a damn good job too. Have you thought of getting just the 3rd gear made out of something better material wise? Also rather than shot peening have you considered isotropic finishing/polishing?

Try extreme finishing or extreme rotarys they do it and it apparently works wonders.

 

 

Stu.

[BUZ440]

Hmm never knew Third gear would be the weakpoint in the box, seems to be the money gear, haha

 

OT: Stock SR with a GT28RS, computer, injectors will pump close 300hp atw, and if your not silly I would imagine the box would be ok for a while with drifting, i can't comment for the other gearboxes tho, but not known many people to swap it out for something else

 

Ben i would have thought a tremec would be ideal to some degree?

[irokin]

Have you tried Modena engineering they make gear sets. Do a damn good job too. Have you thought of getting just the 3rd gear made out of something better material wise? Also rather than shot peening have you considered isotropic finishing/polishing?

Try extreme finishing or extreme rotarys they do it and it apparently works wonders.

 

Plenty of people do the gearsets, supply isn't so much a problem as price and then strength. Most don't add a whole lot more power capability to the gearbox. PPG say max 500hp with the complete straight cut dog engagement set but you're pushing up over $10k with all the options once its assembled. At that kind of price I might as well just buy a used Holinger V8SC 6 speed, get a bellhousing made and be done with it. At least that way I'd get something that will take 600hp+ day in day out. The PAR straight cut dog engagement 1st-4th set sells for $4600 but their strength is a bit of an unknown. What happens if it explodes at the first track day? $5k+ down the tubes (ask loz from NS about what happened to his PPG set after a rebuild). Unless some engineering company wants the sponsor me a gearset or comes out with some solution around the $3k mark I really can't see myself going this way anytime soon.

 

Can't get just the 3rd gear made up unfortunately. The lay shaft is all one piece so the minimum is 1st-3rd unless someone uber tricky can make the tooth profile match the lay gear.

 

I like the look of that finishing. Could be just the trick.