B-B-Benne Posted December 25, 2005 Report Posted December 25, 2005 1st post so if this has been previously discussed, don't shoot me.yet. i'm thinking of a light weight, well balanced car that has growth potential, lots of grip and is still small and chuckable...to me, shoe horning an all alloy 1uzfe into a ke70 makes perfect sense. sure, to get the front/rear weight spot on, it will require some reworking of the firewall and trans tunnel (v160's aren't small) but given adequate thought, time , effort and a bit of money, it can be done...adapting a falcon rear axle with its four link + watts link arrangement makes even MORE sense...more grip means more speed, more angle etc etc... if anyone thinks this isn't a complete waste of time let me know and i'll post up the build details...still in paper at this point but juts gimme some time...when i'm used to the car's beaviour i'll be thinking twins...cheers :S Quote
Super Jamie Posted December 25, 2005 Report Posted December 25, 2005 we've had this discussion before. you're really going to have to either full-cage the car, or tube frame it like a sports sedan. i've seen an ae86 with a pretty mad rb25det and it had such terrible body flex the hatch would flap around under power. not cool that's also a metric crapton of power for such a light car. seriously, if you can't drift a ke70 with a stock sr20det (which is FAR more within the torque limits of the monocoque body structure), you need to learn to drive better. amateur dudes out there, just like you and me, are throwing around s13s with just manual ca18dets and having HEAPS of fun i think it's a complete waste of time. if you want to drift a ke70, use a better suited engine. if you want to drive a 1uz-fe, use a better suited car Quote
B-B-Benne Posted December 25, 2005 Author Report Posted December 25, 2005 0-kay. i can live with the necessity of a rollcage but...well...to me, keeping an engine stock means you can replace it with another one quick smart, if needs be....having a light ( rigid enough) body with a decently powerful engine WITH a decent front/rear weight balance still kinda makes sense to me...increasing the track to enable more stability and a whole host of other chassis tricks is what sets this project apart from what i've seen anyone do...period. i've seen and been in quite a few "wild" cars...i'm trying to keep this simple. thanks for the input tho jamie! Quote
Clown Posted December 26, 2005 Report Posted December 26, 2005 say no to 1uzfe and say yes to a 4agze or a ca18det. A mate was trying to talk me into the 1uzfe conversion aswell but i decided against it. You want simple but are goin with a 1uzfe? Quote
z|gen Posted December 27, 2005 Report Posted December 27, 2005 a couple dudes over here in NZ are drifting ke70s, one was powered by a 3tgteu and the other I'm pretty sure was 4agze or 4agte. Quote
Rolla__Boy Posted December 27, 2005 Report Posted December 27, 2005 My mate drifts with an AE86 with a 4AGZE, the engine has 130rwkw's and it drifts fine, really damn fine....So maybe instead of wasting all your cash making a boat anchor KE70, you could spend some on driving courses, so you can drift. My mate used to use his standard 4AC with open wheel diff in the AE86 before he got the 4AGZE. Drifting is all about suspension, not about V8 power. Quote
B-B-Benne Posted December 27, 2005 Author Report Posted December 27, 2005 (edited) okay...i didn't mean to stir up the mud but... if an iron block 4 cylinder weighs less than a 1UZ, i'm krusty the clown. how does mounting a 1uz as far back in the bay as possible make it a "boat anchor"??? this particular V8 is scarcely longer than the engine i would be pulling out...it is wider and taller however... why a V8? simple. no need for a turbo. no need for a sudden exponential increase in torque....just a nice, fat curve to play with... i appreciate everything that has been said here, and while i might be digging my own grave posting this, i'm going ahead with this project. Ben btw rollabuoy...i can handle myself in a car, okay sweety? Edited December 27, 2005 by B-B-Benne Quote
Super Jamie Posted December 27, 2005 Report Posted December 27, 2005 goodo mate, i hope you do it and it works out alright. let us know how you go with it Quote
love ke70 Posted December 28, 2005 Report Posted December 28, 2005 if an iron block 4 cylinder weighs less than a 1UZ, i'm krusty the clown holy f@$king shit...your krusty the clown!!! do you really think a 1uz weighs less than a 4k........ a 4k weighs a bit over 100kg, and most guys on here have probably picked one up with a mate or slid one around and would know that really they don't weigh all that much, now visit this site here http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/engineweights.html and one will find that a lexus v8 4.0 l aka a 1uz weighs 470pounds 470*0.454=213kg.....double the weight of a 4k. how does mounting a 1uz as far back in the bay as possible make it a "boat anchor"??? now then krusty. if we think about drifting, you are trying to break traction on the rear end and make this afore mentioned rear end slide outwards thru a corner. this happens by the rear end pivoting around the engine (basically) and if you shove the engine along way back, this pivot isnt going to happen very well...hence crappy drifting.so you see doing this makes your ke70 good only as a boat anchor, but as i very much love my 3 ke70's i would hate to see one go to the bottom of the ocean, so id be more inclined to say that the car will handle like a boat. this particular V8 is scarcely longer than the engine i would be pulling out...it is wider and taller however... and heavier why a V8? simple. no need for a turbo. no need for a sudden exponential increase in torque....just a nice, fat curve to play with... keep a turbo'd engine on boost and you have a better, more responsive torque curve to play with, i mean how hard is it to get a car boosting and keep it there, a well set up car will come on boost by lets say 3500rpm, and stay there to the redline......but remember turbo for speed, supercharger for skids ;) its just like a nice big v8 torque curve, only the car handles nice and tight, and not like a boat (think 4agze or 1ggze) i appreciate everything that has been said here, and while i might be digging my own grave posting this, i'm going ahead with this project. ok if thats what you want to do.....however remeber that you have a "dedicated ke70 drifter" thats set up like a burnout car, and when you try and drift in it you will be awesome at entering a long sweeping corner sideways 50m early and doing a huge powerslide, but as soon as you try and do some skillful, corner to corner drift on a tight track where you need to enter tight, and change direction you will be fuxxored. if anyone thinks this isn't a complete waste of time let me know and i'll post up the build details...still in paper at this point but juts gimme some time...when i'm used to the car's beaviour i'll be thinking twins can you post the full build details and you say you don't want turbo coz of the "sudden exponential increase in torque" yet you say you are thinking of putting twins on after a while :S me thinks this is your plan Quote
Super Jamie Posted December 28, 2005 Report Posted December 28, 2005 i would like everyone to try very hard to keep this discussion friendly and not insulting. remember it's just cars on a forum, don't get your knickers in a twist and start writing each other off i suggest you revise your drifting theory. the car does not pivot around the engine, it pivots around the center of gravity, a point which moves depending on the way the car is setup, and how you're driving it at that exact point in time. drifting is about shifting weight to a point where the car more or less settles on the center of gravity and maintains a slide under power following your engine pivot theory, it would be practically impossible to drift cars like MR2s and NSXs, but these things are indeed do-able, because i have seen them done. sure, they take alot of skill because the extra weight in the back acts like a pendulum (so the center of gravity moves quicker than in an FR car) but it's certainly possible with enough practice and skill Quote
love ke70 Posted December 28, 2005 Report Posted December 28, 2005 i would like everyone to try very hard to keep this discussion friendly and not insulting. remember it's just cars on a forum, don't get your knickers in a twist and start writing each other off i suggest you revise your drifting theory. the car does not pivot around the engine, it pivots around the center of gravity, a point which moves depending on the way the car is setup, and how you're driving it at that exact point in time. drifting is about shifting weight to a point where the car more or less settles on the center of gravity and maintains a slide under power following your engine pivot theory, it would be practically impossible to drift cars like MR2s and NSXs, but these things are indeed do-able, because i have seen them done. sure, they take alot of skill because the extra weight in the back acts like a pendulum (so the center of gravity moves quicker than in an FR car) but it's certainly possible with enough practice and skill sorry my bad but the further back the engine is the further back the centre of gravity is which makes drifting more difficult rite? anywho i think i made my point *shrugs* Quote
Super Jamie Posted December 28, 2005 Report Posted December 28, 2005 not necessarily. if your engine was way out in front of the car, it would be very hard to drift. if the engine was way out the back of the car, it would also be hard to drift. having the engine in the middle is actually a good idea, it helps keep the center of gravity, well, centralised. this allows for more neutral and predictable handling building a well-handling car for ANYTHING (drift, track, drag, rally, etc) is about finding a balance. there is no concrete right or wrong way to do anything, or there would be a book "how to build the best driftcar in the world and everything else is shit" but there isn't a book like that, nor will there ever be it also depends very much on the driver and their own personal experiences and skills and preferences. what works for one driver may not work for another, tho generally a highly-skilled and -experienced driver can adapt to different cars. watch some hot version videos with tsuchiya and how he drives all sorts of cars (FR, FF, MR) on touge courses and comments on them. he's the "drift king" now, but he's raced and done well in all sorts of grip-driving events (such as JGTP) throughout his career. now he's just a rich old man and drifting is his retirement hobby, cos he likes it :) i am a firm believer that if the weight is sprung, you can manage it. i have seen a ke20 with a big old 327 chev which turned better than my ke25, which only had a 4k. iron-block v8 corolla handling better than something with a light engine? wtf?! sure, it might cost alot and take alot of development if you're doing a more extreme car (such as the ones we are discussing here), but with enough time and money, nearly anything is do-able with suspension Quote
Clown Posted December 28, 2005 Report Posted December 28, 2005 Try track down the guy in melbourne with the 1uzfe sprinter and ask him some questions! Quote
B-B-Benne Posted December 30, 2005 Author Report Posted December 30, 2005 (edited) love ke70: um. okay maybe i should change my name to krusty...i'm seriously surprised to hear that about the weight.... Increasing inertia will increase weight, reducing responsiveness...i plan to combat this by increasing the track, increasing the mechanical grip and maximising the front/rear weight balance as much as possible...i mean...you never know, i might end up with a car that is completely different to what i was expecting and have spent huge amounts of time and money creating my very own lemon...i'm just going to have to try and keep my head on and be realistic with what i'm trying to achieve... btw what the hell kind of (engine?) is that... i'm going to post up the details next but there is so much that is still under question, guys feel free to correct me on any of the following ideas! ps drifting is easiest when the weight balance resides between (f/r) 70/30 and 55/45...silvias weight balance has evolved over the years, yet the s13 with an rb engine drifts well... :) Edited December 30, 2005 by B-B-Benne Quote
B-B-Benne Posted December 30, 2005 Author Report Posted December 30, 2005 (edited) dedicated lemon care of krusty: starting with a stripped ke70 shell: (82 vintage) -weld rear doors shut -seam weld chassis -modified firewall and trans tunnel to accomodate 1uz anchor, fabricated from slightly thicker panels -rollcage install, completely integrated with bodyshell >triangulated design, picking up on suspension mounts, pillars, chassis rails >x-bars across front doors, 2 x-bars in rear section, one vert, one 45'. >squahed pipe section with insert, similar to aus police pursuit cages (which incidentally, fits inside their high density plastic trim) :) >additional underbody and suspension braces rear suspension: -shortened falcodore axle assembly (length taken from outside diff housing) >fabricated pickups on chassis, rose jointed adjustable length 4 link & watts linkage, pickups tied into cage >coilovers mounted from shock mounts on axle to fabricated pickups, also tied in to cage -solid swaybar -hilux lsd?...aftermarket 1.5 way mechanical plate type lsd...kaaz maybe? front suspension: -fabricated lower arms, spacer under outside balljoint, rose jointed. (atm i'm trying to see if its possible to adapt some s14 hubs...including brake calipers, steering rack...this looks to be waaay more labour intensive so its undecided) -? struts...large bore shocks (dms 40/50mm?) i hate flex in front shocks.... :( other stuff: -1UZFE mounted in a front/midships position, the front of the engine is in line with the front axle... -dellow bellhousing to adapt 1uz to v160 getrag 6 speed (supra)...unfortunately because of the length of this 'box and the position i'd like the engine, a custom linkage is going to have to be fabricated...which is a shame but if designed and built correctly, i won't loose tooo much shifting feel... -fabricated tailshaft and yokes...i'm thinking hilux again... because of the engine i'm probably going to have to use an upside down brake booster (surf i think?) and, hopefully not but at the worst fabricate a different setup in the cabin... -autronic sm4 computer...fresh r33 gtr fuel pump, swirl pot, triple pass alloy rad, gaping hole in the bonnet, front undertrays, HID headlights, Convo Pro rims, autometer gauges in original squarey dash... as you can see there's not only a shyteload of fab to be done but it has to be done very accurately...and unfortunately, if i crash and twist the chassis...well....all that's for nothing. but hey, if you've ever heard a 1uz in a soarer or celsior with an exhaust, you might begin to understand why i'm going for this...thanks for any responses you may offer! Edited December 30, 2005 by B-B-Benne Quote
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