Banjo Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) Hi Guys & Gals ! Sorry this is not going to be short, but it’s just a bit of lateral thinking at present, & I’m throwing it out there. Back in early January, I posted on here that I was looking for a Toyota Echo for my “petite” 18 y.o. daughter, who needs a first car, with a seat which has enough adjustment, so that she can reach the pedals. I found a good one here in Brisbane about 10 days ago, with which I was very happy with. Like all good dads, I spent the previous Saturday & Sunday, plus a few hours yesterday, going over the car completely, doing a full 160K klm service. Every fluid, every filter, spark plugs, wiper blades, every adjustment; basically a very full service. I half expected it was going to be a bit difficult, as I assumed the east west 2NZ-FE engine would be crammed into the small front engine bay. I was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to work on, and after a full day on it, had fallen in love with the 2NZ-FE engine. These engines, have a very good reputation for being strong, reliable, nippy, & very fuel efficient, from what I had read on the net. The spark plugs I took out, needed replacing, as the gaps were wide with the inner tips worn out, but the insulators were perfect, showing a lovely clean whitish colour. The more I worked on the engine, the more I loved it. Even taking off the throttle body & cleaning it with carby & throttle cleaner was easy. About the only unpleasant job, was removing the fuel pump/guage/filter assembly out of the tank under the floor, under the back seat. What a nightmare, to dissemble & fit the main & pick up filters. Everything else was pretty easy to get at. It wasn’t till later that night, as I lay in bed, I thought, “would it be nice if I could pop a 2NZ-FE in my KE30 2 door Rolla”. The next morning I roughly measured it up, & had a good look at its specs on the net. It certainly would physically fit in the engine bay fairly easily. Despite the 2NZ-FE’s sophisticated design, compared to a 4K donk, with cross flow head, 4 valves per cylinder, variable valve timing, electric cooling fan, fuel injection, & obviously computer engine management, the two engines are pretty similar. Both 1300cc, 75mm x 73mm, being almost “square”. However, the big difference is in output & fuel efficiency. A basic stock stand 4K will produce about 60 HP, whereas the 2NZ-FE puts out 84 HP, a 40% improvement. The 1500cc version of this motor is the 1NZ-FE, which appears to be the same block, but stroked to 75mm x 84mm, has an output of 109 HP. That’s a whopping 84% over the little 4K. The 1NZ-FEs were fitted to the Sportivo versions of the Echo & Yaris. My research indicates that there is a bolt on turbo kit for the 1NZ-FE which brings it well over 120 HP. By now, my head is running all sorts of scenarios. A quick look on the net indicates “long” 2NZ-FEs engines can be picked up for between $ 300 & $ 500. So I go looking on the net to see if anyone globally has swapped a 1NZ-FE or 2NZ-FE into a KE series Rolla, & I can’t find anything. I found one guy who made up his own adaptor plate, so he could fit a conventional in-line gearbox to it, but he didn’t say what car it was being fitted to. So if it is true that few, if any, have swapped them to KE Rollas; why ? My gut feeling it is probably because of lack of facilities on the side of the block to fit engine mounts. The existing engine mounts on the 2NZ-FE in my daughter’s Echo are high up on what would be the front of the engine, if mounted in a KE Rolla. The other one appears to be high up to one side off the bell housing/gearbox. So I get on the net this morning looking at pictures of this motor for sale at wreckers, zooming in on the photos of these motors, sitting on pallets, trying to see the sides of the aluminium block. Unfortunately, being a cross flow head the intake & exhaust manifolds cover these areas, & I will probably have to head off down to the wreckers to see one in the flesh for myself. I’d like to keep my 43 y.o. olde daily drive Rolla for another 10 years, & see it reach 50, but am thinking, wouldn't it be nice to drive a sleeper, with a 1 or 2 NZ-FE engine under the hood. We spend so much time & money, trying to tweek every last HP out of our K series engines, when now there are available second hand for $ 500, a standard comparable engine with everything we are trying to achieve with our K series donks. So has anyone heard of this being done before ? Has anyone contemplated it, & given it away, because of technical obstacles (like mountings) etc ? Would love to have anyone’s thoughts on this. As I said, it is just “lateral thinking” at this point, and maybe a pipe dream, but if it is “doable” then I’d be only too happy to grab an engine and give it a go. P.S. Would make a great Mighty Car Mods video. If you’ve ever watched the swap of a Subaru engine into a VW Bettle, you’ll know what I mean. Cheers Banjo Edited March 5, 2017 by Banjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloRolla Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/threads/25025-1nzfe-ke70/page1 May have already seen this, and it's about a ke70. I had a quick flick through and they had some good points. Edited March 5, 2017 by SloRolla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altezzaclub Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) I was talking to Steve about this last week- The 4AGE is geting older and older and will be harder to find, so we need to jump a couple of generations & get into some new motors. What's the water setup on the back like Banjo?? That will always be a pain to fit against the firewall. At least we can get past the old 'dizzy sticking out the back of the head' problem now. Older cars (1950s Armstrong Siddeleys spring to mind)) had a curved plate of metal behind the radiator, across the front from chassis rail to rail, & the engine mount was in that, so it can be done OK. I reckon straight-forward engineering problems like mounts are the easiest ones to solve. Getting the cooling system set up can be worse, and finding a modern gearbox would be vital as the T50s are all worn out now. Any options to the J160?? In the end, dropping in the whole lot from an MX5 makes sense! Edited March 5, 2017 by altezzaclub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloRolla Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 I reckon mx5 engines are a great idea! Cheap enough and easy to turbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 and remove the fun that is the K engine. NO THANKS, id get too bored without trying to keep it running! :P A std 4k engine was enough for my friend to roll our KE55 bash car onto its roof! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 see! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted March 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 Now Now ! That's not a nice way to treat a Rolla. As Donald would say. That could be fake news. Maybe you just rotated the photo, & got your friend to stand on his head. Ha Ha ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 hahaah. hes not the one who rolled it, it was another guy, who looked really white afterwards. did you know that a corolla with a stock carb will run fine immediately after being upside down with oil all through the carb. Also, i thought it was a good reason to finally add myself an avatar.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 btw the back door that you can see in that picture is actually 99% made out of space invader foam and bog, held together with paint! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted March 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) Thanks James for that Toymods link. I read through it. It was posted nearly 10 years ago, when the 2NZ-FEs were relatively new, & the prices for second hand ones were fairly high. Interesting reading. I note that the thread stops, with it appearing that the swap never went ahead. Keith, the head has a water outlet on the back of the head going back to the radiator header tank, but I don't think it will be an issue, as I do not think the engine will have to go hard up against the firewall. Easier to rearrange than a distributor on the 4AGE. The throttle body might have to be repositioned, as it sticks out beyond the rear of the engine. Someone jokingly remarked in the Toymods link, that you could cut a hole in the firewall, & but the air filter box in the glovebox. There are three engine / gearbox mounts on the Echo setup. One right at the front of the engine. One down onto the cross member next to the exhaust header. One apparently under the battery, off the gearbox housing. Next time I put it up on the ramps, I'll pull off all those plastic stone guards around the engine, so I can have a good look. Maybe the adaptor plate for the bell housing/gearbox could be profiled to hang out each side a little, so rubber engine mounts can be attached. The real question is what 5 speed gearbox would you mate with it. As you point out, the T50 are getting olde & hard to find, & the K50 boxes have issues of bearings not being available now, if they are to be refurbished. I know the MX-5 sounds simple & straight forward, & a lot of guys like to fit the Nissan motors to their Rollas. I like to keep all my mods Toyota. I must admit though that I do have a Pajero master cylinder fitted, to feed the larger Cressida brake calipers & rotors fitted to my RA65 Celica struts on the front of my KE30 ! I'll do a bit more research on this, & see what I come up with. One nice thing I liked about the 2NZ-FE in the Echo setup, is the fact that it still uses an accelerator cable, instead of electric throttle like in later Toyota Corollas etc. Makes it very easy to integrate with the KE existing accelerator pedal & cable. Cheers Banjo Edited March 5, 2017 by Banjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted March 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) Love your new Avatar Jeremy ! Edited March 5, 2017 by Banjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuilder86 Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) i just realised what you did with the name of this thread, LATERAL!! The bore and stroke are similar which makes me think this engine will be too...... what do the kids call it these days......ZIPPY, for an old girl. It must be high up power in the echo, the old 4k rolla was so good at making its power low. I think you would miss that. mind you, whos to say you don't intend on driving it around like a mad man. RARHH RAAAAARH RAAAAAAAAAAAA Edited March 5, 2017 by rebuilder86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted March 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 I did just find something out about the 1NZ-FE & 2NZ-FE engines, that does bother me a little. Being an aluminium block, they have a relatively thin cylinder wall liner/sleeve, that does NOT allow for reboring. Sounds to me like once the bore is too worn, its a throwaway block, unless some smart engine builder somewhere, has worked out a way to fit a new sleeve to the worn out block. However, these engines are known for their longevity. The inspection certifier who checked this Echo before I bought it, said they regularly get to 250K klms, and he has seen a growing number with 350k klms on them & still going strong & not blowing smoke. Cheers Banjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altezzaclub Posted March 5, 2017 Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 Those are pretty typical Km for modern engines, the engineering is just light-years ahead of the 1980s. I expect alloy blocks with liners are most common now too. You used to be able to fit new liners to motors that had them back in the 80s, you could buy a kit of liners/gaskets/pistons with rings to fit. Some were wet liners with O-rings at the bottom, some dry pressed liners. When I'm bored I'll hit the wrecker for a look too. The gearbox adapter will be the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted March 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) I discovered this little comment whilst researching on the Yarisworld.com website . . . . -RUMOR: That a 4age series motor has the same transmission housing as the Yaris, I have yet to find supporting information to confirm this, but it has been spread around enough to be considered possible. So the 4AGE started life as an east west engine, & has been widely used in Rollas with in a north/south configuration. If this rumour turns out to be fact, then any good in-line 5 speed gearbox that bolts up to the 4AGE series with a bell housing adaptor, would also possibly suit a 2NZ-FE engine. Can anyone see anything wrong with this logic ? If not, then what gearboxes would meet that criteria ? Cheers Banjo Edited March 5, 2017 by Banjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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