4k/5k head (Thermostat housing compatibility)

[Thomas Dillon]

Hi team, 

Currently in the process of rebuilding a wee kp for summertime skids & coffee cruising. 
 

Bought the kp and have come to realise it’s got a dished piston bottom end and what I believe to be a 5k head and have confirm this with the previous owner but it’s all “apparently”. The head has got the two knobs under each spark tube at both ends. 
 

Anyway, I’ve turfed the facto radiator and electric fan and have gone for the Fenix ke70 ally rad/fan shroud kit for maximum coolage when abusing it over the takaka hill. 
 

Question being, are the entire top & bottom thermostat housings compatible across the range of 2k-5k heads? 
 

My current thermostat housing outlet is shooting off towards the right hand side of the bay if you’re looking at the motor. The Fenix top tank outlet is on the left hand side. 
 

Option 1: I run a 180 degree rad hose off the current set up, through a length of stainless and into the radiator. (Not the end of the world). 
 

Option 2: we tidy things up and put one of the other thermostat housings on that shoot the other way. 
 

basically just wanting to know if they bolt to the head all the same. 

Really appreciate ya help in advance, 

Cheers fellars 

 

[Banjo]

Frankly, after all the K Series engines, I've seen on the net, & in real life; I can't remember ever seeing one with the top outlet spout, pointing towards the RHS.  All the ones I've seen point towards the LHS; as on my 4K test bed engine below.

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The head has got the two knobs under each spark tube at both ends. 

That is definitely a 5K head.  It was the only K Series head with two "knobs" in the casting under the end spark plug sockets, I'm led to believe.

The crankshaft front pulley, looks as if it is 5K. The two sandwiched pulleies were common, as the 5K engines were used in Toyota forklifts & the like, & drove various pumps/compressors etc, off the additional pulley.

However, the front camshaft sprocket cover, does not look 5K, as the timing chain marks are in the wrong place.

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Option 2: we tidy things up and put one of the other thermostat housings on that shoot the other way. 

Definitely get a top hose outlet, that points in the opposite direction. Will look so much better, in the engine bay.

As far as I know, the bottom thermostat housings are all the same, as are the water pumps.

Someone correct me, if I'm wrong.

Have You had this engine running ?  If the block is a 5K, then T.D.C. No 1, will be a bit out, if You line up the crank pulley timing nick, with the timing marks on the camshaft sprocket case.

I covered this topic, in a post years ago, when I fitted a  5K crankshaft pully, onto a 4K engine.

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https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/83250-4k-efi-test-rig-iac-valve/page/2/#comment-733591

Cheers Banjo

Edited yesterday at 08:26 AM by Banjo

[altezzaclub]

Why don't you just turn the outlet around 180deg? Aren't they symmetrical?

[Banjo]

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Why don't you just turn the outlet around 180deg? Aren't they symmetrical?

In theory, they visibly look like they are, (says He scratching his head), I'll have to go out ito the garage & try one.  (too late in the day, is my excuse !)

Cheers Banjo

[Banjo]

No unfortunately. Definitely not symmetrical !

 

[Thomas Dillon]

1 hour ago, Banjo said:

Have You had this engine running ?  If the block is a 5K, then T.D.C. No 1, will be a bit out, if You line up the crank pulley timing nick, with the timing marks on the camshaft sprocket case.

I can confirm I have had this motor running and it goes like a cut cat. I haven’t had it running since I swapped out the single row chain to the double row. 
 

I think both you guys weighed in on this. I couldn’t get the locator dowel to line up and had to roll the crank back like a tooth to get it all on. 
 

The other finiky thing with this motor is its had the eg. 4k - ***** stamped on the block ground off hahah. 
 

are there any other ways of identifying the block? It goes way harder than any 4K I’ve owned, which makes me think it could be 5k. Although the rumour down the grape vine of previous owners say 4k-u block 5k head. 
 

I think I’ve found a ke70 thermo housing that should have us sorted to shoot water the other way. 
 

Thanks for your input fellas, both of you banjo & altezza always blow me away with your responses. I hope these forums pay you haha!!  
 

I’ve added photos of various angles of the motor for you guys to geek out on if you can figure if it’s 5/4k 

[altezzaclub]

"and it goes like a cut cat."

Toss the downdraft  and get a single 40DCOE Weber on there! If not bike quads!

I don't suppose you measured the bore when you had the head off, or took a picture of the pistons? Dished pistons sound like 5K too, my 4K looked like this-

That was digging the rusted gunk out from around #3 & 4 cylinders, a major reason they overheat and blow gaskets.

I thought that t'stat top would rotate easily. it certainly does in Photoshop!

 

Sounds like a fun build, any idea on the cam that's in it?

 

[Banjo]

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I thought that t'stat top would rotate easily. it certainly does in Photoshop!

The centre line between the two mounting holes, does not pass through the centre of the open area. It will probably bolt down OK, but will leave a slight gap on one or both sides, which will leak or blow, with minimal face to face, one or both sides. I'll try it tomorrow, & see.

Cheers Banjo

[altezzaclub]

You are right! I didn't look at the fine detail, although now I vaguely remember something about it from a  decade or two back.

[Thomas Dillon]

I haven’t had the head off on this motor yet, have be tidying up the body and everything else first as it was in dire need of some tlc. 

Once/if the motor kabooms itself then we’ll give it a good once over. I’ve had a peep down the spark tube on a very peculiar angle and have definitely seen dished pistos. 
 

Even just giving the motor a wee freshen; all gaskets/seals, main seal, twin row, filter, engine mounts, radiator/fan, etc etc I’ve ended up spending a handsome sum ay hahah. It adds up quick. 
 

carbs in good time, we just need to get out there rippin first. 
 

this is the pile of goodies waiting to go back in the car after paint, set a date to have it finished for early September so we’ll see 🤣🤣

had a wee mock up with the new wheels the other day and now I just want it finished 

[altezzaclub]

Love it!  Fenix, Superlites.. Money doesn't go far with those names!

You know where you'll end up eventually!

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uU0uBJp09lc

Wonderful little cars, garage 4AGE helped make them famous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX4CAVEsdVA

..and the Europeans love them in rallying and hillclimbs.

https://www.facebook.com/VHTRacing/videos/248299146008069/?s=100000342565571&v=e&sfns=mo

..and if you want to stick with a  K motor but make it go faster you will need-

https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/51097-4k-twin-cam/

have fun!

[Banjo]

Hi Thomas,

                   Superb little project !  That last link, Attezzaclub posted goes back nearly a decade & a half.  After reading it again, I'm starting to feel "olde" !

Keep up the good work; & keep posting pics thereof !

Cheers Banjo

[Banjo]

Hi Thomas,

                    As I expected; when You reverse the standard top hose spout cover over the thermostat, it leaves a small gap, for the coolant to pour out.

However, on the opposite underside of the thermostat cover/spout; the gap is not very wide at all; but there still is a gap.

Because the gaps are pretty small; You could possibily cut a piece of flat sheet metal, to cover these holes, with a big round hole in the middle. You'd also need to cut a appropriate gasket either side of the flat sheet metal plate, & use gasket cement, to make sure there are no leaks.  Might be an easier solution, than trying to source one of those reverse spouts, that I didn't even know existed.

Cheers Banjo

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Banjo

[Thomas Dillon]

Hey fellas, 

tezza - A twin cam 4k?! The f*ck. Some people are too smart ahaha! They’re bloody epic cars, this is my 5th one. All the ones I’ve had in the past have been built by others. Good to go ham on this one myself (and try to do things properly hahah) 
 

What do we think about a beams 3sge swap?

 

Banjo - your efforts are outstanding! It’s such bastard ay. However on a positive note I tracked one down in just over 24 hours and it on its way hahah. 

Pic attached. Hopefully this does the trick 

I just need to have a fiddle with temp gauge sensors, I also need a port for the fan switch, may need to run a twin T fitting if there’s only one tapped port on the bottom of the housing.

 

shes pretty ugly but a good scrub up with some scotch bright and she’ll be brand new haha 

ill touch base when she arrives 

felllars, cheers 
 

 

[Banjo]

I have seen a thermostat cover/spout, with a threaded hole right on the top, that is the perfect place to put a electric fan "high temp" switch.  (95 deg C is a usual/common fan switch temp)

Anyway, I could not get hold of one, so filed a small flat on the top of the thermostat cover/spout; drilled & threaded a hole & fitted a hi temp switch. It's been in my daily drive, for years, & works like a charm.  

P.S.  My aluminium radiator & fan is out of a Toyota Echo.  Works a treat.  The fan rarely comes on, when driving, as the ram effect of the air is enough to reduce the coolant temp.  However, when I pull up in the driveway, after a run; the fan cuts in; & about 5-7 minutes later shuts down. Works like a dream, so the position above the thermostat, is a perfect fan control point, in the coolant flow path.

Don't use a T fitting for two temp sensor. The temperature guage sensor, is best fitted to the standard guage point, on the lower thermostat housing, on the LHS, viewed from the front of the car.  Works perfectly there.

Cheers Banjo

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Banjo