camerondownunder88 Posted March 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Hi, Well i would love the bigger cam BUT I drive 110km round trip to my training school currently to get my ticket of gas turbines so I would love a big cam BUT I also need economy. So the stock one is only for about 7 months then it will be big and SC14 ..lol But pending on what the grind is on the current mod'ed cam if it is usable with a blower well Ill keep if not ill sell. But I have manuals and the know how on this cam issue thanks to Mr TRD and well I just don't have time to dial my cam in and that as I need my car pretty much everyday so I need this cam swap done in about 2/3hr's..lol Cheers Cameron P.S. Does anyone have aircon K motor mounts or the hiace van power steering mounts for a K motor laying around for cheap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 You don't necessarily have to dial a cam in. If the cam grinder knows what he is doing, they will grind the cam straight up.... meaning that if you install the cam as per the stock timing marks on the timing gears it will be fine. There must be hundreds of k motors out there (possibly way more) with modified cams in them. Only a very very small percentage of them would have bothered with degreeing them in. Your cam was most likely installed a tooth out. One tooth out is 20 degrees out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love ke70 Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 hehe, move it one way...will it start? yes, congratulations you passed. no? turn it now 2 teeth the other one. done diddly done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerondownunder88 Posted March 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Hi, Well all those who said use regrounf cam and move it one tooth well bad news. I can't..lol Turns out the pin on the front of the cam has snapped shattered the front of the cam and it was all lose and 10 degrees out so it is pooped so in goes a standard 4K will post pics after I finish putting motor back together about 50% through cam swap now..lol Cheers Cameron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Oh well at least you now know what the problem is. Make sure you compare the thickness of the rear bearing journal on the cam you are going to install with that of your old one. Seem to recall an incidence or two of people installing 4k cams into 5k blocks and the rear cam bearing journal hitting the welshplug at the back of the block. :P Think bmak from the oldcorollas group had this happen and it destroyed a cam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerondownunder88 Posted March 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Hi, Well called quits for the nigth adn I got my calipers out adn messured the cam out of interest adn well the bearing on the cam as still the same so spot on :P also was same length so will fit great. Only thing I had to replace was the front thrust surface on the cam as when the pin came out it mm destroyed the original one well damaged it..lol Ill up load a photo of the damage tomorrow Cameron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xany Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Has your 5K still got the hydro lifters in it? if so, i'm pretty sure you need a cam to suit....because the 4K is a Solid lifter cam i don't think it is compatible with the hydro lifters can anyone confirm this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madrolla68 Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Has your 5K still got the hydro lifters in it? if so, i'm pretty sure you need a cam to suit....because the 4K is a Solid lifter cam i don't think it is compatible with the hydro lifters can anyone confirm this? Yes is this correct,do not put a solid grind 4K cam into an engine that is setup for hydraulics it wont work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerondownunder88 Posted March 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Hi, Well put the 4K cam in the 5K as it is all I have and I need the car for work so in it went. Car runs fine idles and revs freely and lifters spin as the motor is running and the push rod does so they are getting even wear and all that. So all works so lets hope it stays working. Also in the FAQ it says 5K could come with solid lifters and says there the same as the 3F Toyota motor and if u get some just drop them in and go so does a K motor cam have a different grind or ramp rate between the lifters? Also if it is wrong what is the expected time I have till the lifters shit them self? Cheers Cameron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerondownunder88 Posted March 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Hi, Ok did some research and well a solid lifter cam on hydros is a bad idea and new hydraulic lifters from Toyota are like $80 each so I have decided the car is out of action and getting pulled apart again :P As the ramp rate and that is different to a hydro cam so it will break the lifters. But I need a standard 5K hydraulic cam ASAP does anyone out there have one that can be posted to me in less than a week at all and is in good condition? Cheers Cameron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madrolla68 Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Hi, Ok did some research and well a solid lifter cam on hydros is a bad idea and new hydraulic lifters from Toyota are like $80 each so I have decided the car is out of action and getting pulled apart again :P As the ramp rate and that is different to a hydro cam so it will break the lifters. But I need a standard 5K hydraulic cam ASAP does anyone out there have one that can be posted to me in less than a week at all and is in good condition? Cheers Cameron I spoke to cam today and it would appear that the 4/5K cams are the same part number thanks to Trd so he has decided to run it and see how it goes. All the best mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love ke70 Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 (edited) ill loan you mine... for a slight fee :P Edited March 4, 2007 by love ke70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 (edited) From the research I've done, hydraulic cams have higher ramp rates than what mechanical cams do. The hydraulic lifters smooth it out. I have a reground 5k hydraulic cam in the 4k in my ke16. It seems to have more lifter noise now than what it had when it had the old reground solid cam in it. It runs fine. :P Edited March 4, 2007 by Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerondownunder88 Posted March 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Hi, Yes apparently 5K/4K solid and hydrulic cam shafts have the same part number EVEN a cross reference so that is why I went ahead and used it. Also madrolla great talking this arvo top bloke and on the solid lifter conversion sending my dad to my mates engine rebuilding shop he owns and I know he cam redo cams and has a huge bin out hte back with old K motors in it and holden red motors and datto stuff ( I know as I raid this from time to time..lol) So hoping to source all parts I need for solid lifter conversion. So thanks for advise on converting to solids madrolla. Also Took the 5K for a spin with solid cam shaft and hydros in it. Runs fine to about 3000RPM so I though burn out did one at high revs I can hear the lifters not closing the valve properly as there "pumped up" So it held the valves open a fraction and lost a tad bit of power. BUT I let motor idle and put along road for a bit then sound of valves not closing went away ran FINE :P Also temps not up or nothing so my verdict is you can run a solid cam on hydros BUT not if you hunting power or anything maybe as a fast fix?? Also Felix. On the cams a solid cam shaft has a small not as steep are that is designed to take up the lash in a solid lifter application. This stops the cam for whacking the push rod straight onto the rocker and causing more force on the motor breaking parts. But a hydraulic cam has no lash so there is no small ramp at the start to clear the lash it just ramps straight to the cam point fast. Solid lifters need the small ramp for long life. So I would imagine switching cams will work BUT hydraulic cam on solids you will lose the lash ramp and could do damage. Hydros on the other hand I read the ramp on a solid lifter cam makes them pump up a bit then all of a sudden pump a lot fast this wont damage them BUT it will cause them to "pump up" and jam faster so say they maxed out at 5000RPM before now it could be at 4000RPM they pump up so that is all. This will cause your valve to stay open a fraction then you lose power etc. So road use I sit in traffic getting to the airport daily so I will get away with tme fine if you do track work not recommended. So they are switchable. Also on a last note on that when my oil is cold the hydros "pump up" straight away about 1min later they run fie as oil can get out faster so this also is noticeable. But if you have to do this swap as long as the lifter still rotates on the cam (this also differs on came hydros rotate slower than solids so mine spin BLOODY FAST right now..lol) it will get an even wear and the base of a hydro lifter is same as a solid so there is no reason it wont work. So it will get me by till I finish sourcing solid lifter conversion parts as at high way speed hydros now will pump up adn ill lose all economy..lol Cheers Cameron P.S. On a last note did find a VW site and it was talking about a solid to hydro conversion into there motors. All the people who did it NEVER changed the cam apparently there both the same so they just swap them so can't see why it wont work for a long time just it has down sides like at high revs valves not closing etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerondownunder88 Posted March 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 One more note. Found this on a web page talks abotu ramps. This is as far as I could find the only grind difference between solids to hydros the ramp so this explains about lash ramp a bit etc as solids need a lash ramp hydros don't as there always pushing from the oil pressure so they go straight into there major ramp to open the valve. Snippet below: Ramps? What are ramps? I know I keep talking about them, there are several ramps and important sections of them. This term refers to the portion of the cam lobe that actually raises above the base circle of the cam. It will denote how quickly or slowly the valves open and close.The first is the lash ramp. This is the where the lifter is in a transition area where the lifter goes from the base circle to an area with a more aggressive rate known as the opening ramp. The lash ramp softens the effects of an "at rest" condition to a "work" mode. The opening ramp is next and it is exactly what it sounds like. This is where the cam begins to open the valve. A couple of segments of this ramp are the major and minor intensity areas. Major intensity is the first segment and it occurs within .020 and .050 of lobe lift and in most cases will not start before the first 28 degrees of duration. This allows for a suitable lash ramp for the lifter to stabilize. Exceptions to this would be VERY aggressive roller cams which see regular maintenance as far as pushrods, springs, etc. Ramp rates are made in such a way that they allow a slowing area (lash ramp) for the valve to seat without great harshness and minimum bounce. Yes, I said bounce. Even with high spring pressures, a valve will bounce 3 times before resting on the seat. What about the area between the opening and closing ramps? Well, that is called the nose. It is the area where the valve is kept at peak lift as long as possible before the closing cycle begins. With too aggressive a design in ramps and the nose, the lifter can actually run off the ramp and then come crashing down on the nose of the cam. To combat this, rev-kits are made which use springs mounted to the lifter that apply added pressure to the lifter to keep it seated in the bore and on the cam. Attention to ramp velocity, nose design, and inertia of the lifter must be given close consideration. I have seen several "pancaked" lifters from this phenomenon (also known as "loft"), even with rev-kits, and believe me, it is not pretty. So there you go rev a cam with wrong lifters hard smashed lifter that is all take it easy it will work :P Hope this helps someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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