Mybowlcut Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 Hey. I want to lower my KE70. I'm upgrading shocks as well as springs because everywhere I read people are saying it's best to upgrade when you change springs. Now, I've done a lot of searching and have picked up a lot of links to posts about KE** suspension setups. Along the way I read in one post that money poured into stock KE70 suspension (I assume they meant keeping the KE70 struts) is money wasted. E.g a quote (not the previously mentioned statement, but similiar) from one of the threads: unfortunately you can't do much with the stocko front suspension. you need to get bigger struts to put in decent shocks. Just wanted to know if this is true? What's wrong with chucking in some Monroe/KYB shocks on stock kesev struts? I started a thread a while ago about cutting stock springs and concluded with the fact that it's not safe nor legal. However, some people who know what they are on about have done it (also upgrading shocks) and claim it works great. Eg: The best budget upgrade is probably corona fron suspension, and cut standard springs with commodoore shocks. I have cut standards in my spirit, and they are phonomenal for grip. Will upgrading the shocks whilst cutting stock springs avoid the "springs not being held captive" issue? This question is purely theoretical and more out of curiosity of the conflicting opinions rather than intent to follow through and chop them, so please don't lock the thread. :yak: Also, will lowering my car affect any other suspension properties in an adverse way? I've read a lot about camber and castor... and XT130 LCAs vs GH/GE sigma LCAs to achieve negative camber and all that stuff... will I need to touch on any of that stuff just because I upgraded shocks/springs? Here are the relevant threads/posts/sites that I found on the topic to get an idea of why I'm curious about this stuff and to show I'm not being lazy: http://www.rollaclub.com/board/index.php?a...st&p=245145 http://www.rollaclub.com/board/index.php?a...st&p=245163 http://www.rollaclub.com/board/index.php?a...ost&p=26133 http://www.rollaclub.com/board/index.php?a...ost&p=26120 http://www.rollaclub.com/board/index.php?a...st&p=138051 http://www.rollaclub.com/board/index.php?a...ost&p=45650 http://www.rollaclub.com/board/?showtopic=24298 http://www.whiteline.com.au/default.asp?page=/faqsusp01.htm Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam-__- Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) 'Keeping KE70 struts and just throwing in some new shocks.' With that idea, I don't see anything wrong with it as long as you find some that fit into the standard strut and are short enough as well as stiff enough for your new lowered springs. This is a bit difficult that's why most upgrade to the 86 struts, more shock absorber availability. 'Cut springs with new shocks.' I personally don't see a problem with cut springs as long as they're captive. Many people will say that the heat created while cutting the spring will weaken the material (which is true to some extent) and might be of some danger. I'm yet to see or read of anyone who has suffered from springs which have 'snapped' or something similar because of cut springs. Edit: I'd like to add that lowered 'proper' springs with no short shock installed is no different to cut springs with no shocks (except for that weakening thing). 'Changing other things when changing shocks and springs.' Just replacing standard items with standard items, I don't see a need to change anything else except for a wheel alignment. But when you change springs/shocks to lower/higher ones, you'll be changing the car's roll centre. Roll centre adjusters should be used as well as other things I don't know ( :yak: ). There's a stickied thread explaining what get effected when changing suspension components in the General Mechanical area. Edit: This thread, http://www.rollaclub.com/board/index.php?showtopic=21133 I'm obviously no expert in the suspensions area. What I've written is just what I've read and learnt. Edited January 18, 2009 by adam-__- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ke70dave Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 so i can't be stuffed clicking on all those links.... but... if you want to lower your car properly you need to run a "short stroke shockabsorber", so that the wheels are kept closer to the body on maximum extension. this also ensures that the shorter (lower) springs are kept captive. the reason ke70 struts are useless is that they are too small in diameter for any decent shock absorber to fit. ke70 is like 49mm or something and ae86 is 52mm i think, something like that. either way nothing good can fit inside a ke70 shock tube. there is problly an ok shock available for the ke70 strut but it wont be short stroke, and thus no good to you. the other disadvantage is that there is no easily available brake upgrade available for ke70 struts. if you get ae86 struts you can get the vented discs and calipers off a jdm ae86 and bolt them right on. the only way to enusre that your springs are captive is to have short stroke shocks. there are various threads around on how to make decent suspension out of ae86 struts. look on ae86drivingclub.com.au as well. in response to "Also, will lowering my car affect any other suspension properties in an adverse way? I've read a lot about camber and castor... and XT130 LCAs vs GH/GE sigma LCAs to achieve negative camber and all that stuff... will I need to touch on any of that stuff just because I upgraded shocks/springs?" i dunno what youve read about castor and camber but its not related to shocks and springs. longer LCA's are just another upgrade that people do to get a bit of camber if they want it. there are no "have to's" when choosing suspension "upgrades", its personal preference. i think more research is in order! and don't just put on upgrades cause "thats what everyone does", some of the "upgrades" that people do suck.....and become quite impracticle. look into "roll centre adjusters" as these are considered a "must have item" for lowerd ke70/ae86's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mybowlcut Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 'Keeping KE70 struts and just throwing in some new shocks.' With that idea, I don't see anything wrong with it as long as you find some that fit into the standard strut and are short enough as well as stiff enough for your new lowered springs. This is a bit difficult that's why most upgrade to the 86 struts, more shock absorber availability. 'Cut springs with new shocks.' I personally don't see a problem with cut springs as long as they're captive. Many people will say that the heat created while cutting the spring will weaken the material (which is true to some extent) and might be of some danger. I'm yet to see or read of anyone who has suffered from springs which have 'snapped' or something similar because of cut springs. Edit: I'd like to add that lowered 'proper' springs with no short shock installed is no different to cut springs with no shocks (except for that weakening thing). 'Changing other things when changing shocks and springs.' Just replacing standard items with standard items, I don't see a need to change anything else except for a wheel alignment. But when you change springs/shocks to lower/higher ones, you'll be changing the car's roll centre. Roll centre adjusters should be used as well as other things I don't know ( :y: ). There's a stickied thread explaining what get effected when changing suspension components in the General Mechanical area. Edit: This thread, http://www.rollaclub.com/board/index.php?showtopic=21133 I'm obviously no expert in the suspensions area. What I've written is just what I've read and learnt. Cheers Adam. :loo: Do you mind if I ask how much you paid for your ae86 struts (I think you have them?)? Did you get them back and front? so i can't be stuffed clicking on all those links.... but... if you want to lower your car properly you need to run a "short stroke shockabsorber", so that the wheels are kept closer to the body on maximum extension. this also ensures that the shorter (lower) springs are kept captive. the reason ke70 struts are useless is that they are too small in diameter for any decent shock absorber to fit. ke70 is like 49mm or something and ae86 is 52mm i think, something like that. either way nothing good can fit inside a ke70 shock tube. there is problly an ok shock available for the ke70 strut but it wont be short stroke, and thus no good to you. the other disadvantage is that there is no easily available brake upgrade available for ke70 struts. if you get ae86 struts you can get the vented discs and calipers off a jdm ae86 and bolt them right on. the only way to enusre that your springs are captive is to have short stroke shocks. there are various threads around on how to make decent suspension out of ae86 struts. look on ae86drivingclub.com.au as well. in response to "Also, will lowering my car affect any other suspension properties in an adverse way? I've read a lot about camber and castor... and XT130 LCAs vs GH/GE sigma LCAs to achieve negative camber and all that stuff... will I need to touch on any of that stuff just because I upgraded shocks/springs?" i dunno what youve read about castor and camber but its not related to shocks and springs. longer LCA's are just another upgrade that people do to get a bit of camber if they want it. there are no "have to's" when choosing suspension "upgrades", its personal preference. i think more research is in order! and don't just put on upgrades cause "thats what everyone does", some of the "upgrades" that people do suck.....and become quite impracticle. look into "roll centre adjusters" as these are considered a "must have item" for lowerd ke70/ae86's. So if I lower it I'll definitely need short stroke shocks.. but:This is a bit difficult that's why most upgrade to the 86 struts, more shock absorber availability.Has anyone found any short stroke shocks that will work? If anyone has, I'd be very interested to hear about them. I am not really fussed about bigger brakes as my 5K doesn't put out enough power to warrant extreme braking. :yak: Plus, I figure it will be simpler and cheaper to avoid changing struts. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam-__- Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) I bought my 86 struts with all the hubs, brakes, etc for $260. Only other thing I really needed to make them work in my car were 86 steering arms to suit the strut, $30. It's only the fronts. KE70 rears are the same as AE86s, what shocks/springs they use, you can too. AE86 (as well as AE71 panovan, same thing) struts have many different types of 'short stroke' shocks available. Here's a list of shocks for the 86 strut and *E7*/86 rears: AE86 Body length: 402mm Extended length: 604mm Extended minus Body: 202mm Outside Diameter: 43.5mm AE92: Body length: 336mm Extended length: 500mm Extended minus Body: 164mm Outside Diameter: 43.5mm Celica T/RA63 Body length: 405mm Extended length: 605mm (3dr hatch maybe shorter then this) Extended minus Body: 200mm Outside Diameter: 43.5mm Shaft diameter: 22mm Corolla KE35: Body length: 414mm Extended length: 613mm Extended minus Body: 199mm Outside Diameter: 38mm Corona TT132 Body length: 403mm Extended length: 600mm Extended minus Body: 197mm Outside Diameter: 43.5mm Tokico HTS Body length: 332mm Extended length: 476mm Extended minus Body: 144mm Outside Diameter: 43.5mm Rear Shocks Dimensions: AE86 Extended Length: 560mm Closed Length: 335mm AW11 S/C Body length: 345mm Outside Diameter: 43.5mm Peugeot 505 Extended length: 420mm Extended minus Body: 270mm Twin Tube Rating (344004): 1900/600 Toyota Cressida/Mark II GX70 Station Wagon Dimensions unknown but good for AE86 rear shock, sim to Peugeot above, maybe stiffer Hilux (front shock) Extended length: 420mm KYB Heavy Duty Gas Rating (KG5437): 3100/1000 Mazda RX-7 Gen 1 Extended Length: 540mm Closed Length: 323mm Celica T/RA63 Extended Length: 620mm Closed Length: 320mm '82 Camaro (16" wheels) Extended Length: 486mm Closed Length: 309mm Tokico HTS Extended Length: 455mm Closed Length: 307.5mm Shocks from heavier cars are used because they have higher rebound and damper rates, it's sometimes enough to control the 6kg or higher springs we run. Edit: That list of shocks are shocks which fit into our cars and are short stroke. Up to you which shock you want to run really, it all depends on your springs. Edited January 18, 2009 by adam-__- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam-__- Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) in response to"Also, will lowering my car affect any other suspension properties in an adverse way? I've read a lot about camber and castor... and XT130 LCAs vs GH/GE sigma LCAs to achieve negative camber and all that stuff... will I need to touch on any of that stuff just because I upgraded shocks/springs?" i dunno what youve read about castor and camber but its not related to shocks and springs. longer LCA's are just another upgrade that people do to get a bit of camber if they want it. This really depends on the suspension setup in the car. Lowering our cars doesn't do much to camber (if anything at all), but lowering a S13 for example, you'll be changing the camber and I think castor (might've been toe). Edited January 18, 2009 by adam-__- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KEI069 Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 Edit: I'd like to add that lowered 'proper' springs with no short shock installed is no different to cut springs with no shocks (except for that weakening thing). Not quite, a 'proper' lowered spring would have a different spring rate compared to a 'cut' spring. For the same ride height a proper lowered spring would have say 7 coils whilst a cut spring would only have say 5 coils making it less effective. If you have no plan on a brake upgrade i would just fit some decent shocks and a set of kings springs. It might be worth checking to see if monroe have released their new GT sports shocks (short stroke) to suit a ke70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ke70dave Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 This really depends on the suspension setup in the car. Lowering our cars doesn't do much to camber (if anything at all), but lowering a S13 for example, you'll be changing the camber and I think castor (might've been toe). yeah you are correct. in this case though so long as you get a wheel alignemnt after you change anything you will be fine. dropping the car on a ke gives it a bit of toe in i think.....and will increase any castor that is present, only minor though. but its a good idea to get a wheel alignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mybowlcut Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 This really depends on the suspension setup in the car. Lowering our cars doesn't do much to camber (if anything at all), but lowering a S13 for example, you'll be changing the camber and I think castor (might've been toe).Cheers for the list of shocks. So if I wanted to change my rear shocks I could ask a place for shocks that either fit my KE70 or those cars? I'm not looking to change struts if it's avoidable which I'm thinking it will be now. Edit: I'd like to add that lowered 'proper' springs with no short shock installed is no different to cut springs with no shocks (except for that weakening thing). Not quite, a 'proper' lowered spring would have a different spring rate compared to a 'cut' spring. For the same ride height a proper lowered spring would have say 7 coils whilst a cut spring would only have say 5 coils making it less effective. If you have no plan on a brake upgrade i would just fit some decent shocks and a set of kings springs. It might be worth checking to see if monroe have released their new GT sports shocks (short stroke) to suit a ke70 I've been advised against King springs by too many people haha... but yeah I'll find some good springs. The decent shock part might not be so hard for the rear seeing Adam's list, but I guess I'll just have to shop around for something good for the front. yeah you are correct. in this case though so long as you get a wheel alignemnt after you change anything you will be fine. dropping the car on a ke gives it a bit of toe in i think.....and will increase any castor that is present, only minor though. but its a good idea to get a wheel alignment. Will do. :yak: Cheers guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1doony Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 someone up top ask if a person off here bought REAR struts for a ke70 ke70/ae86/ae71/ke1x ke2x ke3x ke5x run either leaf spring with borgwarner or solid rear axle borgwarner or solid rear "s" series diff. there is no such thing as a rear end "strut'' unless you meant shocky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam-__- Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 Cheers for the list of shocks. So if I wanted to change my rear shocks I could ask a place for shocks that either fit my KE70 or those cars? I'm not looking to change struts if it's avoidable which I'm thinking it will be now. Yeah, pretty much. Probably best to do some research on a particular shock and get part numbers though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapper Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 ke1x ke2x ke3x ke5x run leaf spring rear with damper (borg warner or banjo style "japanese" diff) KE70/AE71/AE86 run coil rear side-by-side with a damper cheers, Slapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mybowlcut Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 someone up top ask if a person off here bought REAR struts for a ke70 ke70/ae86/ae71/ke1x ke2x ke3x ke5x run either leaf spring with borgwarner or solid rear axle borgwarner or solid rear "s" series diff. there is no such thing as a rear end "strut'' unless you meant shocky. Haha Dan you know I know shit all about this stuff, right? That's why I ask these stupid questions. :yak: Yeah, pretty much. Probably best to do some research on a particular shock and get part numbers though.Rightio. ke1x ke2x ke3x ke5x run leaf spring rear with damper (borg warner or banjo style "japanese" diff)KE70/AE71/AE86 run coil rear side-by-side with a damper cheers, Slapper Time for me to go look under my car haha. :y: Cheers. :loo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mybowlcut Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Bloooody hell. Just rang up a suspension place for some quotes... $155 a pair low lovells front and rear part no: 343036 $120 a pair rear kyb shocks part no: 365015 $216 a pair front ae86 kyb shocks (apparently that comes as a whole strut??) For KE70 shocks: front $254 pair monroe shocks rear $159 pair monroe shocks $608 retail for front and rear (fronts = $389 rear = $214) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam-__- Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Bloooody hell. Just rang up a suspension place for some quotes... $155 a pair low lovells front and rear part no: 343036 $120 a pair rear kyb shocks part no: 365015 $216 a pair front ae86 kyb shocks (apparently that comes as a whole strut??) For KE70 shocks: front $254 pair monroe shocks rear $159 pair monroe shocks $608 retail for front and rear (fronts = $389 rear = $214) For those prices, they're only the shocks, no struts will be included. These are only standard AE86 replacement shocks as well so they'll will most likely not hold your new lowered springs captive. It'll work better than what you've currently got (except for the front shocks because those are made for the thicker 86 struts) because they're newer, but might as well spend that money towards 'right' shocks. You might've been aware of all this already, but thought I'd let you know to make sure. :yak: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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