Suspension... Everyone Has Already Asked!

[coln72]

Most guys tend to get carried away with themselves going for the LOOK, and changing shit just for the sake of it because it sounds cool.

 

Oh so true.

 

Guess I'm weird, but I have always felt that the rear of a Rolla is too stiff and ended up softening the rear leaves in my KE20.

[Redwarf]

Guess I'm weird,

 

Quoted for truth! :)

[tbo92]

Throw the lowering blocks away. They're about as useful as a scuba tank made from cheese.

FREAKING AWESOME! I LOVE CHEESE :D hehe

[coln72]

QUOTE (coln72 @ May 11 2009, 11:24 PM)

Guess I'm weird,

 

 

Quoted for truth!

 

Prick :D

[tbo92]

Ok, so i now know i have to get the springs reset, rather than lowering blocks (they will do for a few weeks how ever :D)

 

also, for the fronts it appears most are suggesting a good shock, custom spring with heavy rate, and some good sway bars!

 

would this seem correct?

[webb]

Ok, so i now know i have to get the springs reset, rather than lowering blocks (they will do for a few weeks how ever :D)

 

also, for the fronts it appears most are suggesting a good shock, custom spring with heavy rate, and some good sway bars!

 

would this seem correct?

 

 

It's a plan. I have Suzuki Sierra front shocks in the rear of my rolla. They have much shorter travel than standard. So when its lower it will be stiffer. And they bolt right in.

 

People will say don't do it. But EB Falcon Rear King spring "Lows" also fit straight into the spring seat.... Just cut a few coils off (blah blah its ghetto.. meh its fine)

 

This will have a much stiffer front end (because chookas weigh like 5tonnes so its STIFF) than standard springs. good shocks too!

 

Sway bars yep.

 

 

thats my opinion.

Edited May 12, 2009 by webb

[slapper]

Get EB Falcon REAR KING springs "Lows"

 

Get new standard shocks for the front.

 

Cut the falcon springs down, put the new shocks in. you will have a VERY stiff front end.

 

That is horrendously underdamped and will bounce like crap if you have front tyres with any grip.

Been there ... done that.

 

Really, there's no reason to cut springs beyond a way of testing different rates.

Cut springs have no real place in a daily driver as an end goal.

 

Do it properly - get lowered and stiffer springs by all means, but make sure your damper is matched to the spring.

 

 

I've heard the suzuki sierra shocks for the rear before, but can anyone tell me whether they're a stiffer damper than the original?

 

cheers,

Slapper

Edited May 12, 2009 by slapper

[webb]

That is horrendously underdamped and will bounce like crap if you have front tyres with any grip.

 

 

its not really too bad :D

[tbo92]

hmmmm, i am hearing a lot about cutting springs, and it doesnt seem to bad - i did do it in my old AE92 Seca, but they were stock springs and it hit bump stop very easy.

 

so would it be safe to assume that the Falcon springs have a heavy rate stopping this?

[webb]

hmmmm, i am hearing a lot about cutting springs, and it doesnt seem to bad - i did do it in my old AE92 Seca, but they were stock springs and it hit bump stop very easy.

 

so would it be safe to assume that the Falcon springs have a heavy rate stopping this?

 

 

Yep, 4 coils where cut off mine. (about half the spring)

[slapper]

The only real problems with cut springs are:

• they don't locate so well in the spring carrier as you've cut away the nicely formed end that sat there. This can be an issue as the spring can rotate to the side when you unload it (top of a bump, inside of a corner etc)
  
• depending on how you cut them, they are more likely to crack and break ... mid-corner would be lots of fun!
  
• illegal
  
• your insurance company will walk away refusing to have anything to do with paying a single damn cent
  

 

Really, it's just not worth it.

 

You will save yourself the cost of one set of springs by cutting the ones you have.

Subtract the cost of your falcon springs if you have to buy them. So you've saved, oh, I don't know, $150?

 

Is $150 worth the risk of

• car defected - will the rest of the car pass the intensive inspection that will result?
  
• fine/charges brought against you after an accident for driving an unroadworthy car
  
• zero insurance coverage if you're in a stack and the assessor notices your dodgey springs
  

 

You're better off getting the right spring (with the rate of a cut falcon spring if that's what you want) coupled with an effective damper.

As an aside: if you're driving on the road, you'll need a softer spring than you can tolerate on the track. The roads are not as smooth as a track - don't think that "harder is better, so really hard must be best" :D A road car has to be a compromise.

 

Having said all that, there are some excellent recommendations earlier in this thread. You should be looking for:

An inch or two lower in the front with a stiffer spring and a matched damper. If you can't afford that, go for a Pedders or Industrial Springs or whatever, 20% stiffer spring (or so) with a new monroe gas or similar (OEM replacement) shock. The extra spring stiffness is okay with the original damper.

Don't go much any lower than flat control arms without considering roll-center adjusters or something similar, even flat is pushing it.

 

Invert the eyes at the rear and add an extra leaf - original damper should be fine, but a stiffer one would be better.

 

Urethane all your front-end bushes - swaybar mounts, ends, radius rods and lower control arm.

Urethane what you can on the rear suspension. With my KE25, I could only get rear hangers, none of the other bushes were available.

 

Ideally, you'd be better off replacing the dampers with billstein or similar but your wallet may force you to make a compromise!

 

cheers,

Slapper

[tbo92]

The only real problems with cut springs are:

• they don't locate so well in the spring carrier as you've cut away the nicely formed end that sat there. This can be an issue as the spring can rotate to the side when you unload it (top of a bump, inside of a corner etc)
  
• depending on how you cut them, they are more likely to crack and break ... mid-corner would be lots of fun!
  
• illegal
  
• your insurance company will walk away refusing to have anything to do with paying a single damn cent
  

 

Really, it's just not worth it.

 

You will save yourself the cost of one set of springs by cutting the ones you have.

Subtract the cost of your falcon springs if you have to buy them. So you've saved, oh, I don't know, $150?

 

Is $150 worth the risk of

• car defected - will the rest of the car pass the intensive inspection that will result?
  
• fine/charges brought against you after an accident for driving an unroadworthy car
  
• zero insurance coverage if you're in a stack and the assessor notices your dodgey springs
  

 

You're better off getting the right spring (with the rate of a cut falcon spring if that's what you want) coupled with an effective damper.

As an aside: if you're driving on the road, you'll need a softer spring than you can tolerate on the track. The roads are not as smooth as a track - don't think that "harder is better, so really hard must be best" :jamie: A road car has to be a compromise.

 

Having said all that, there are some excellent recommendations earlier in this thread. You should be looking for:

An inch or two lower in the front with a stiffer spring and a matched damper. If you can't afford that, go for a Pedders or Industrial Springs or whatever, 20% stiffer spring (or so) with a new monroe gas or similar (OEM replacement) shock. The extra spring stiffness is okay with the original damper.

Don't go much any lower than flat control arms without considering roll-center adjusters or something similar, even flat is pushing it.

 

Invert the eyes at the rear and add an extra leaf - original damper should be fine, but a stiffer one would be better.

 

Urethane all your front-end bushes - swaybar mounts, ends, radius rods and lower control arm.

Urethane what you can on the rear suspension. With my KE25, I could only get rear hangers, none of the other bushes were available.

 

Ideally, you'd be better off replacing the dampers with billstein or similar but your wallet may force you to make a compromise!

 

cheers,

Slapper

 

 

Thanks for the Novel, i honestly appreciate people who take the time to help me understand the pros AND cons of doing things.

 

ok, so now my head has stopped hurting -

 

i was hoping to lower about 3" in the front and the rear, do you know if this would be making the control arms flat? and what is the implications of doing so?

 

also - does anyone know of a Strut Brace for the front of a KE55?

 

i think i will be going with a new strut in the front, with custom spring rate springs. 400lbs i think would be nice.

 

for the rear i will be getting the springs reset lower and will be putting an extra leaf in to stiffen it up a little. and with my brand new fitted today KYB damper in the rear it is quiet nice.

 

i will keep all posted if people could keep giving me your awesome imput! thanks heaps

 

its going to be a little ripper :yes:

 

goes in for paint in 4 weeks, had all the panel work done on it last week by ROLLAANDY (bit of advertising there for ya andy :lol:)

 

looking for wheels... hoping to get custom made, 4 x 114.3 7" +12 offset watanabe's BUT so BLEEDING EXSPENSIVE! :D

 

thanks muchly!

Edited May 13, 2009 by tbo92

[Boost+k]

400lb is pretty damn stiff... i run 450lb in my ke70 wagon with a heavy sr20det and i use it for drifting, i used to run 350pd with the 5k turbo in the same car and it was my daily on the street, also used to hit the tack and i thought it was a good compremise between the two, the thing i noticed when i went to the 450lb was i changed the shocks to trd units and it made it wayyyyyy nicer to drive, so valving is really important when running stiff springs

 

 

to drop the front 3" i'd recomend you shorten the strut casing with a shorter insert so you still have some travel... would also be running RCA's cause you'll be close to flat lower arm

[tbo92]

400lb is pretty damn stiff... i run 450lb in my ke70 wagon with a heavy sr20det and i use it for drifting, i used to run 350pd with the 5k turbo in the same car and it was my daily on the street, also used to hit the tack and i thought it was a good compremise between the two, the thing i noticed when i went to the 450lb was i changed the shocks to trd units and it made it wayyyyyy nicer to drive, so valving is really important when running stiff springs

 

 

to drop the front 3" i'd recomend you shorten the strut casing with a shorter insert so you still have some travel... would also be running RCA's cause you'll be close to flat lower arm

 

nice thanks for the update, hey what did you have to do to get the sr in it?

 

fire wall mods tunel mods etc?

 

thanks champ!

[slapper]

i was hoping to lower about 3" in the front and the rear, do you know if this would be making the control arms flat? and what is the implications of doing so?

 

3" may not be achievable without some extra mod's.

That will almost certainly take the front lower control arms past flat.

The problem with that is that

 

1) You will have screwed your front roll-center up.

Draw a line 90 degrees from the top of your strut, draw a line through the lower control arm. Where those lines intersect is your roll-center for the front suspension. This, loosely speaking, is the point where your suspension is providing all its resistance to body roll. Ideally, you want to get this as close to the center of gravity of your car as possible. Above the C.O.G. is better than below - below and your suspension starts helping the body roll rather than hindering it ... loosely speaking :y:

Roll Center Adjusters go on the bottom of your stut and space that end of the control arm down so as to return the LCA angle to something sensible.

Anything past 2" compression, you should really be thinking about RCAs.

 

2) As your suspension compresses, the bottom of the strut will no longer move outwards, but inwards. This is a lesser effect than (1) above but any decrease in camber is bad, right? Particularly when you most need it (ie. outside wheel getting reduced camber as suspension compresses).

 

 

3 " at the back is almost certainly going to give you "diff hitting floor" issues.

You may need to trim the bump stop attached to the floor above the diff center and/or build a cutaway above the diff to accomodate the loving closeness.

 

You also want to be careful with leaf springs. You don't want to deform them past flat - in complete and utter plain speak, the spring rate starts to decrease as the ends get closer together. Get the eyes reset and dearch a little to achieve 3 inches. Even if you decide 2" is cool, do it with reset eyes rather than resetting the arch.

 

My KE25 was dropped roughly 2 inches. Shorter stiffer springs at the front, reversed eyes (and sometimes an extra leaf) at the back.

Front control arms were pretty well dead flat.

Diff hit the bump stop whenever I hit speed humps at ... well ... speed. In the end, the kids wouldn't ride in the back as "it hurt" too much.

 

My AE71 is dropped about 1.5 inches at the front and about 2 inches at the back.

I'm amazed that I have never bottomed out the suspension given my KE25 experiences.

 

so ... your KE55 mileage may vary :)

 

cheers.

Slapper