white_sandshoe Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 Hi all, I've been doing a fair bit of reading lately, and I thought I'd chuck this up for some friendly discussion... My thought is this... Where is money best spent on a cheap track car? Yes, I know "cheap track car" is a contradiction in terms, but bear with me. I'm looking at the areas of a performance vehicle can't be scrimped on... Where decent money has to be spent with the goal not so much being for overall performance, but more focussed on driver skill development. What are the 'order of priority' for spending on a track car, that can make for a reliable tool to develop driver skills? Is it better to spend on adjustable suspension, decent track tires, better power to weight (note that i didn't say MORE power...), better brakes... anything you can think of... just where is it most important to spend on decent parts, and what can be done on the cheap??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altezzaclub Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 Brakes and handling!! Especially if you can swap 2nd-hand bits in from bigger cars... Nothing better than outbraking some big, powerful car that just overtook you down the straight and sliding down the inside into the corner! Unfortunately finish lines are on a straight...!! Bloody 911 Porsche pulled out of a country driveway in front of my Datsun 1200 (well, 1500!) one day, on a downhill twiisty bit. I blasted past him into the next corner with all the speed I already had and it really upset the dude! He had it all over me a few hundred metres further on when we had to go uphill, but it was fun at the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_sandshoe Posted July 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 We've got an RA23 which we'll be looking at putting RA65 brakes and struts into. I'm still weighing up engine choice at the moment... What's more important? more power or better weight distribution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwarf Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) Going to sound strage, but safety equipment. Don't skimp. Ever. 3" inch belts, decent helmet (I have a carbon Kevlar Sparco one, which I was wearing when I hit the tree head on. Due to the weights involved, if I'd been wearing a cheapy, it would have ripped my head of.....) Spend money on a decent cage. A nice driving seat (Velo, Sparco, Cobra...) You drive a whole lot better when you know that your still going to go to work on Monday if something big happens. To learn to drive a car, you don't need huge brakes. Make sure the one's you have are recently machined. Spend a bit more on a good set of pads. Suspension. You don't need coilovers. Really. We did without them for years. Good quality shocks (Koni for bitumen, Bilstein for dirt) and a good set of springs. You can get them custom made for not that much at whatever height and poundage you want. Mix and match. Swaybar: If you like, never played much with them personally. Here's a biggy: Do one change at a time. That way you'l know if the change has been good, bad or indifferent. Change a whole bunch of things at the one time and the car turns to crap, your then working backwards to work out what you did wrong. Don't worry too much about the power/ weight thing. Get the car ready, drive it, then start tinkering. I know too many people who have got anal with the car and you never see them because "the cars not right". Hell, one of my cars I've had for 19 years, and I don't think it's EVER been right! :P Get a car, Get decent safety gear, get out there. Then start tinkering. Enjoy. Edited July 10, 2010 by Redwarf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_sandshoe Posted July 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 Damn good advice Mr Redwarf! I've seen second hand harnesses and helmets for sale, and that concept scares me... If they don't feel safe enough to keep using them, why would they let someone else??? I suppose by equipping a driver with an underpowered car, it'd kinda force them to focus on 'best lines' braking points and that sort of thing without a fear of the right pedal throwing them off the track? Oh, for those who race, what tires would you recommend for occasional track use on the cheap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altezzaclub Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 I've got a brand-new race harness that's never been used... I never got around to putting it in the rally car before I sold that, and just never advertised it. I'm sure there are lots of rally/race cars get written off and generate 2nd-hand gear. Grab some 2nd-hand tyres that are still usable. There's a big market in rally tyres where top guys have done two stages then they can afford to put fresh ones on, so I assume racing is similar. If not, there are some great sports road tyres that will do weekend warrior work, like the R888 Toyos http://www.thelotuscentreonline.co.uk/ecomms/item633.htm ..and you're right- you become a better driver learning in an underpowered car rather than an overpowered one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KE70slider Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 i like to run the yokohama AO... something or other haha . they feel stable in the wet and dry. your local race or tyre bloke would have a few just ask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_sandshoe Posted July 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 I scored a second hand set of Potensa RE55s that look like they'll last a few sessions. might be lucky to get three track days out of them before they are bin-worthy. I've been having some good experiences with Sumotomos of late, and can get them for $145 each... They seem to be holding up well at the drags and on my daily, and I've been reading up on training myself to be kind on tires... Hoping to get at least 6-8 months out of a set once on the track properly. I'm going to price up some yokohamas I think... I've never heard a bad thing from the few guys I know that are using them. For power, I was seriously considering dropping in a 7MGTE (that's what happens when i have stuff like that laying around in the shed and nowhere to put them...) but with the thought of underpowered being better for learning with, I'm thinking more along the lines of a 2TGTE, as I've got everything needed to build a darn near bulletproof one. I'm guessing the 2TG will make for a more balanced car (obviously :P) and will still be plenty powerful enough. I've heard recently about a guy running a turbo mazda 4 banger without a wastegate... The theory was that given the class he races in, they run a restrictor plate in the inlet to 'level the playing field' so the turbo would freeboost, but the restrictor would limit the boost at 28ish psi at 6500rpm before actually reducing boost down to 18psi by 8,000rpm as it just couldn't draw anymore air through the restrictor. I've been thinking about this setup... any thoughts from the more knowledgeable??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altezzaclub Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Something about the terms... 4 banger and 28ish psi worry me! :P Isn't 30lb of boost close to the Bang Limit? Its all too complicated compared to NA, although massive mid-range torque while still keeping a screaming top end would be nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinky Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Lol a 2tgte won't be a slow car at all. I run a 20 valve silvertop and that is reasonably quick. The 2tgte could get you into alot of trouble if you are a beginner. I second on not needing massive discs, just get new discs and race pads. Decent pads make a world of difference. Also just as a note, if you do get huge brakes on a small car expect to lock up the brakes very easily. Lets just say your car wieghs 1 tonne, 260mm x 25mm vented discs will provide you with plenty of stopping power for speeds of around 190kmph to 50kmph hairpin braking. Its all in the pads and brake fluid. I guess the question is are you just going to go turbo straight up? If so then do get slightly larger discs like 280mm discs. Also when selecting pads and discs ask whether the pads require a disc with slots otherwise just get a flat faced disc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_sandshoe Posted July 16, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 Its all too complicated compared to NA, although massive mid-range torque while still keeping a screaming top end would be nice! I agree. I am regretting selling my twin sidedraughts now. lol. From what I've heard, guys are saying it comes down to how long you can keep on the throttle before the corner, and how soon you can get on the throttle coming out... I translate that to late braking, smooth and effective cornering and rapid acceleration, so the turbo does come up trumps for that. My thought is a smaller turbo that will boost earlier may be a better bet. I've got a friend who runs a T25 off a Nissan Exa on a RB30, and having driven the car, it doesn't so much as 'come on boost' as it does just feel like a huge capacity engine. lag ends at 1500rpm, so you never see it. feels more like a supercharger! Lol a 2tgte won't be a slow car at all. I run a 20 valve silvertop and that is reasonably quick. The 2tgte could get you into alot of trouble if you are a beginner.I guess the question is are you just going to go turbo straight up? I don't necessarily have to go turbo straight away, as I can run the 2TGEU as it is and hang the hair dryer later. I'm just looking at Wanneroo raceway, which is a high speed circuit. I've spoken to a few of the guys who race there and they have said that realistically, to run fast times, you shouldn't drop below 100km... Looking at the layout, I get the impression that'd be pretty accurate. I don't in any way expect to set course records, but I think cruising around the track without really pushing myself is only doing myself a disservice. My concern is wringing the neck of the 1600 NA to see the top end. I'm thinking along the lines of running a slightly shorter diff ratio, something like a 3.7 and using the boost from lower in the rev range to steer shy of redline. I figure i'd have about the same speed and 'quickness' without over-stressing anything too much. (I'm not going to run 28psi... that is crazy! only looking at 10-12psi. just a bit to make it more akin to a 2L NA...) Cheers for your comments on brakes too! It seems the RA65 vented slotted rotors with good pads will do the job. I do like to chuck all my weight on the brake pedal in an effort to stop, rather than touch them and have them lock... comes from driving old holdens... lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinky Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 You might as well go turbo from the start then and just run that low psi so that you don't damage the top end with all the high rpm shifts you'll need to do with an NA setup. If you are going to be going on a track that rarely sees speeds under 100kmph the 1600 is going to struggle a bit. I have a 1600 with 87ish kw at the wheels so thats about 140hp at the wheels/ 150,155 at the fly and it does take some persuasion to get to 180kmph. For those types of speeds you would want at least 200hp at the fly so getting it force fed would be a safer option in terms of engine health and durability. With the brakes I have 255mm x 23mm vented discs, EBC Greenstuff pads and Super Dot4 fluid with great results. I have no brake fade with constant 140-160kmph down to 60kmph stops. My car wieghs approx 950kg probably a little bit heavier because it has all it's interior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobzd Posted August 1, 2010 Report Share Posted August 1, 2010 Have a look at the tyres at track attack Seem well priced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borked Posted September 4, 2010 Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 1. Safety 2. Reliability 3. Performance In that order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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