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5K with no oil pressure!


LucaKE
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Your issues, triggered a memory of such an issue I had with a K Series engine years ago.  You might like to read this thread, where others pitched in with ideas.

https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/5130-oil-pressure-problems/#comments

The Ryco site doesn't list the Z386 oil filter as being suitable for the K Series engine.

image.png.17fe34c4e591fa8242d35c50a8ab70d6.png

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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56 minutes ago, Banjo said:

So if there is no oil coming out that circled hole to the second rocker shaft mount, from the front, you can be quite sure, that the issue is in the bottom half of the engine.

I just looked up a Z386 Ryco, which is one I have on the shelf here, for a later model Toyota Corolla or Echo, my daughter or wife has.  The Ryco one specified for the 5K, as well as other K Series engines is the Z68.  I tend to use the Z423, which has an anti drain back valve, which the Z68 doesn't have, off memory.  the Z423 is also used by some Merc models.  The Z386 is quite a small filter physically, by comparison, to the original Z68, specified for the 5K engine.  Have you got a picture of the Z386 filter mounted on the block ?

image.png.3dbefa80d1220149b63fa238b39563e1.png

It has a pressure relief valve & an anti drain back valve built in, but not an anti syphon valve. I'm now wondering wether there is someting  wrong in the filter department, that is draining the oil straight back into the sump.  The only other place, short of leaving a bearing slipper out, during reassembly, would be something to do with the timing chain tensioner, or oil squirter, for the chain.  

We are fast running out of alternatives, to dropping the sump, as I believe the engine, is already in the car.

Cheers Banjo

Hmm. I double checked the timing chain recently and it was working as expected, so I am unsure that its the culprit. Would it be worth it to swap the filter for the Z423 filter anyway?

 

Since oil is flowing into the sensor, I think I will technically have oil pressure, but there is still nothing going to the head. This is a quote from 2005 Banjo on the thread you sent me, and gave me a bit of hope!

"The way I understand it, the oil feed to the rocker shaft is at a reduced pressure, and not at full engine oil pressure. The oil feed to the rocker pedestal & top of engine is fed via the second front camshaft journal. This journal has a hole right through it, so oil is only fed to the top of the engine when the hole in the journal lines up with oil holes in the block, which I presume is once or twice every camshaft rotation. The yellow Toyota engine bible has a picture of the lubrication system circulation that depicts just that."

So, my thinking is, have someone with the drill turning the pump whilst I turn the engine over and see if oil squirts out the top. Correct me if I'm wrong! Also, is there some sort of PDF download of the Yellow Toyota bible? I would love to check the lubrication system to be 100% sure!

31 minutes ago, Banjo said:

Your issues, triggered a memory of such an issue I had with a K Series engine years ago.  You might like to read this thread, where others pitched in with ideas.

https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/5130-oil-pressure-problems/#comments

Cheers Banjo

Was a great read! Thanks again for all your help!

Edited by LucaKE
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Hi Luca,

             I'll pull out the "yellow Bible", on the K Series engine, & see if I can't scan the relevant part about the lubrication system.  I keep forgetting you are not turning the engine over with the starter motor.   Is that not possible.  I note it is connected, in your pic, on this thread.

Cheers Banjo

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26 minutes ago, Banjo said:

Hi Luca,

             I'll pull out the "yellow Bible", on the K Series engine, & see if I can't scan the relevant part about the lubrication system.  I keep forgetting you are not turning the engine over with the starter motor.   Is that not possible.  I note it is connected, in your pic, on this thread.

Cheers Banjo

Hi Banjo!

Thanks again for being great help!

Yes, it is possible to crank the engine over by the starter! I have just been diagnosing by hand!

So, to confirm, I should have been cranking the engine over via the starter or by hand to see oil squirt out of the oilway?

Edited by LucaKE
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Hui Luca,

               Here is a pic that clearly shows the oil pressure to the head, passing through the camshaft bearing journal once every two rotations, of the crankshaft.

image.png.03125171bfcb49e6d6a1a0ff90e486ad.png

 

Hope that solves your problem.  Just hook up a battery, & turn over the engine.  If that is not possible, then drive the oil pump, via your drill & screwdriver blade, & get a second person to slowly turn over the engine with a 17mm ring spanner on the crankshaft pulley centre bolt, until the camshaft holes line up, & you hopefully will witness oil squirting out of the hole you circled, on the block.

P.S.  Don't forget to put the dizzy back in, if you are using the starter motor to turn it over, as it needs that, for the oil pump to turn.

Let us know how you go.

Cheers Banjo

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4 minutes ago, Banjo said:

Hui Luca,

               Here is a pic that clearly shows the oil pressure to the head, passing through the camshaft bearing journal once every two rotations, of the crankshaft.

image.png.03125171bfcb49e6d6a1a0ff90e486ad.png

 

Hope that solves your problem.  Just hook up a battery, & turn over the engine.  If that is not possible, then drive the oil pump, via your drill & screwdriver blade, & get a second person to slowly turn over the engine with a 17mm ring spanner on the crankshaft pulley centre bolt, until the camshaft holes line up, & you hopefully will witness oil squirting out of the hole you circled, on the block.

Let us know how you go.

Cheers Banjo

Thanks Banjo! Thats a great picture!

I will investigate in the morning!

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That's why the distributor is so importantant to the operation of the oil lubrication system. No distributor; then the oil pump cannot be turned.

In motors where I have done away with the distributor altogether, I have used a cut down dissy base, with a cap, purely to drive the oil pump.

image.png.e43da5aa0b4893ec092a5d035bf47506.png

Hope you have some good news to tell us tomorrow.

Cheers Banjo

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"passing through the camshaft bearing journal once every two rotations, of the crankshaft. "

Isn't that clever!    So if you slowly turn the crank bit by bit and use the drill there will be a spot where you see oil come out of the rocker feed. Then you can leave the crank alone and assemble the head to pump oil right through the whole rocker system to confirm.

Failing it being the speed of the drill plus the cam restrictor, the only other point is the oil pressure relief valve.   ..or a blocked oilway inside the engine.  For that it would have been a very sludgy engine to rebuild, although I do remember a Holden FJ wagon that had a rocker seize because the oil was never changed.

We tried to do a compression test with a big drill one time, it didn't work at all and it showed how much grunt 300W of starter really has.

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1 hour ago, altezzaclub said:

"passing through the camshaft bearing journal once every two rotations, of the crankshaft. "

Isn't that clever!    So if you slowly turn the crank bit by bit and use the drill there will be a spot where you see oil come out of the rocker feed. Then you can leave the crank alone and assemble the head to pump oil right through the whole rocker system to confirm.

Failing it being the speed of the drill plus the cam restrictor, the only other point is the oil pressure relief valve.   ..or a blocked oilway inside the engine.  For that it would have been a very sludgy engine to rebuild, although I do remember a Holden FJ wagon that had a rocker seize because the oil was never changed.

We tried to do a compression test with a big drill one time, it didn't work at all and it showed how much grunt 300W of starter really has.

 

16 hours ago, Banjo said:

That's why the distributor is so importantant to the operation of the oil lubrication system. No distributor; then the oil pump cannot be turned.

In motors where I have done away with the distributor altogether, I have used a cut down dissy base, with a cap, purely to drive the oil pump.

image.png.e43da5aa0b4893ec092a5d035bf47506.png

Hope you have some good news to tell us tomorrow.

Cheers Banjo

Good news everyone!

Oil comes through the oilway! I slowly turned the crank whilst pumping the pump and eventually I saw oil is going up the oilway! My relief was immense when I saw the oil come through.

I have put the head on and torqued it down to spec. I then spun the oil pump again and wouldn't ya know it, oil comes through to the head! I think my little 5k has oil pressure fellas!

Thanks again for all your help Banjo and Altezzaclub! I would have been very stuck without it! Hopefully when I crank the engine over this weekend, the engine gains oil pressure!

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Good news indeed, Luca !  Always a sinking feeling, when you have spent precious bread; on something, like an engine; & then face the thought, you might have bought a lemon.

All good from here on in.

Keep us in the loop.

P.S. where are you located geographically ?

Cheers Banjo

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26 minutes ago, Banjo said:

Good news indeed, Luca !  Always a sinking feeling, when you have spent precious bread; on something, like an engine; & then face the thought, you might have bought a lemon.

All good from here on in.

Keep us in the loop.

P.S. where are you located geographically ?

Cheers Banjo

Thanks Banjo!

Yes its a great feeling! Was worried some of the oil lines in the block were corroded away somehow. Thank goodness I am incorrect.

I am currently located in Noosa Heads QLD!

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On 9/15/2022 at 12:04 PM, Banjo said:

Good news indeed, Luca !  Always a sinking feeling, when you have spent precious bread; on something, like an engine; & then face the thought, you might have bought a lemon.

All good from here on in.

Keep us in the loop.

P.S. where are you located geographically ?

Cheers Banjo

Update!

Gave my battery a good overnight charge, and finished up a few things on the Rolla before cranking it today! It gets oil pressure! Super quick too! Fuel was getting pumped through by the pump, but there is no spark!

 

Replaced the leads (couldn't find a cap near me in stock) no change! My suspicion is the ignition coil has given up the ghost. Whats the best way to diagnose the spark system?

 

Side note, is it worth it to move to an electronic distributor system?

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That's good, major problem sorted!

Turn the ignition on and take off the dizzy cap. Stick a flatblade screwdriver across the points and open & shut them. You should see a good fat spark.

If you do, stick the lead from the coil near an earth and see if the spark jumps from the coil lead to the car body. Say 3mm gap..

If you don't see a points spark, the problem is prior to them.  No ignition current or the points are shorting out etc. Have the points open and check for 12V with a multimeter or test light. No spark or if the spark is weak, it could also be a condenser problem

 

So, no points spark, chase the 12V supply, chase the points earthing when they shouldn't, change the condenser.

Points spark but no coil spark, maybe the coil is a dud or there's a break/short in a wire. Measure the resistance of the coil circuits.

 

Yes, electronic ignition is better, but beware the advance curve in the usual electronic dizzies sold is a dog, the car will be slower unless you change the springs under the plate.

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6 minutes ago, altezzaclub said:

That's good, major problem sorted!

Turn the ignition on and take off the dizzy cap. Stick a flatblade screwdriver across the points and open & shut them. You should see a good fat spark.

If you do, stick the lead from the coil near an earth and see if the spark jumps from the coil lead to the car body. Say 3mm gap..

If you don't see a points spark, the problem is prior to them.  No ignition current or the points are shorting out etc. Have the points open and check for 12V with a multimeter or test light. No spark or if the spark is weak, it could also be a condenser problem

 

So, no points spark, chase the 12V supply, chase the points earthing when they shouldn't, change the condenser.

Points spark but no coil spark, maybe the coil is a dud or there's a break/short in a wire. Measure the resistance of the coil circuits.

 

Yes, electronic ignition is better, but beware the advance curve in the usual electronic dizzies sold is a dog, the car will be slower unless you change the springs under the plate.

Thanks Altezza!

I will have a go this week! Hopefully I will be able to upload that video of the car running soon!

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On 9/18/2022 at 6:17 PM, altezzaclub said:

That's good, major problem sorted!

Turn the ignition on and take off the dizzy cap. Stick a flatblade screwdriver across the points and open & shut them. You should see a good fat spark.

If you do, stick the lead from the coil near an earth and see if the spark jumps from the coil lead to the car body. Say 3mm gap..

If you don't see a points spark, the problem is prior to them.  No ignition current or the points are shorting out etc. Have the points open and check for 12V with a multimeter or test light. No spark or if the spark is weak, it could also be a condenser problem

 

So, no points spark, chase the 12V supply, chase the points earthing when they shouldn't, change the condenser.

Points spark but no coil spark, maybe the coil is a dud or there's a break/short in a wire. Measure the resistance of the coil circuits.

 

Yes, electronic ignition is better, but beware the advance curve in the usual electronic dizzies sold is a dog, the car will be slower unless you change the springs under the plate.

Had a go this morning! I purchased a new ignition lead and spark plug leads. The points spark when the ignition is on when moved by a flathead, and so does the ignition lead coming from the coil when held near the chassis. Good news!

I put it all back together, and pulled a spark plug out to check to see if it sparks. Still nothing. I cleaned the rotor up and it looks good, but the cap looks worse for wear. The "metal inlets" where the tip of the rotor passes by are fully corroded. I didn't notice it earlier.

Ordered a new cap and It will be here on monday. I will test it next week!

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