GT3LovR Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 I know this topic has been beaten to death in this forum, but answers have been hard to find with a forum this vast. Please help me answer some questions! 1. Do I need to run a standalone ECU, or should I? I have a fully built 16v 4AGE that I'm going to drop into the KE20. I'm expecting at least 180whp out of this motor with ITBs. What standalone should I run? 2. What diff and trans combo should I run? I want to have an LSD in this car because of the power. Do I need a new tailshaft? What is required for to install an LSD compatible with a 5 or 6 speed trans that I'd mate to this 4AGE? What are my options? 3. Do I need to cut holes into the trans tunnel to fit whatever trans I'm going to install? Essentially, I am just wondering about the trans and diff, as well as the ECU. Please give me any suggestions you have, my KE20 knowledge is limited. This is pretty much a no budget build and going full standalone with a new harness is truly an option. I want this car to be as reliable as could be and capable for the historic racing I want to do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altezzaclub Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 The Girls KE70 4AGE apparently came out of a race car 'with the biggest cams before you have to change valve springs'. What this means is although it runs on a stock ECU, intake and exhaust, the idle and the slight throttle response are erratic. It idles nicely at 1000rpm when semi-warm, climbs to an unsteady 1600 when warmed up and may quickly drop in steps to zero & stall. Both coming off the last touch of throttle on a slight downhill or just opening it to maintain speed gives a very jerky over-run or pickup. It wants a solid message from the TPS and it wants to be accelerating. While this is great out of town, it rapidly becomes a pain in daily work/shopping & requires constant heel & toe. I put it down to the lack of vacuum signal below 2000rpm from the cams. I now have a Haltech Sprint 500 to fit, and recently realised every bit of wiring I installed 6years ago needs to be removed and a new loom done. That also came out of a race car & needs a different dizzy setup, a different style of injectors and I'm hoping I don't have to transfer the ITBs with their 2-wire TPS as well. So, start with the stock ECU to see, but be prepared to ditch it and rewire it again for a simple Haltech. The motor uses the T50 gearbox, but if you're flush and want more work, a J160 Altezza box can be adapted to fit. A new driveshaft for sure, and a Japanese banjo diff from a Celica or similar. In the build thread I have how that went into a KE70, but you could use a Corona one as you don't need 5-link mounts. Of course a 5-link or anything to tie those leaf springs down would be better than what you have! A J160 will make you a friend of SamQ, you'll need a gear lever adapter, new mounts, a bell-housing adapter, and a hydraulic clutch for either T50 or J160. A J160 needs the KE70 transmission tunnel to be beaten out slightly, they are much bigger around the bell-housing than a T50. On a K20 it will be similar I hope, you should fit a T50 in as it is, they're not much bigger than a K50. Ah- You will likely need a new hole for the gear lever, just expect that. Start at the end of these and work backwards- https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/ https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/69126-how-to-build-a-rally-car/?gopid=680040#entry680040 PM me with any other questions or stick them up here- Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ke70dave Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 if it is indeed a no budget build, then a proper ECU is a no brainer. as soon as ITBs come into it you really should be using an aftermarket ECU. You cant get a reliable MAP signal with ITBs. People have claimed for years you can get them to run on the oem ecu, but everyone if seen has never run properly, spluttered and carried on. Just not worth the hastle. and i dunno what you mean by "fully built" but if its got cams and compression, then why waste all this effort on a stock ecu that isn't optimized for your arrangment. But the good news is that the 16v engine is a about as basic as it gets. no vvt, 4 clr. So you can pretty much use the cheapest ecu, those haltech sprint 500 ecus can be had real cheap these days, i saw one for 300bucks the other day. yes they are discontinued but they are modern enough to still be useful. Even a brand new elite 550 is only 1200bucks. Really not bad at all for a current model modern ecu. Make yourself a loom, there's hardly any wires (4injector, air temp, water temp, tps and cam sensor), run the old dizzy if you want for real easy setup (single wire control from the ecu!), or convert to dizzy less using various coil on plug options. Learn how to tune it. you will need a variable TPS, i cant recall if the 4age is variable or a switch. get a good wideband sensor and controller and off you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT3LovR Posted January 9 Author Report Share Posted January 9 3 hours ago, altezzaclub said: The motor uses the T50 gearbox, but if you're flush and want more work, a J160 Altezza box can be adapted to fit. A new driveshaft for sure, and a Japanese banjo diff from a Celica or similar. In the build thread I have how that went into a KE70, but you could use a Corona one as you don't need 5-link mounts. Of course a 5-link or anything to tie those leaf springs down would be better than what you have! A J160 will make you a friend of SamQ, you'll need a gear lever adapter, new mounts, a bell-housing adapter, and a hydraulic clutch for either T50 or J160. A J160 needs the KE70 transmission tunnel to be beaten out slightly, they are much bigger around the bell-housing than a T50. On a K20 it will be similar I hope, you should fit a T50 in as it is, they're not much bigger than a K50. Ah- You will likely need a new hole for the gear lever, just expect that. Do you think I could swap the AE86 or TA22/TA23 rear axle into the car and have it fit? It would allow me to swap to disc brakes in the rear and get an LSD (plus modernize the rear end) in one blow. Is this practical/possible? Also, where would I source a driveshaft? Does the car need a custom one to fit the new length required with the 4AGE and T50? Also, for an LSD, what exactly are my options brand wise? What other mods are required to change the rear to 5 link mounts? Finally, to lower the car, how would I go about that with the standard leafs? If I swapped to the AE86 rear axle, would I need new leafs and struts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ke70dave Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 nothing is impossible. you can put any differential you like in, but its all going to be custom. ae86 is coil springs for a start, so you will need to cut all the mounts off the ae86 diff and weld on ones to mount leaf springs. or hack up your ke20 and fit coil spring seats. 5 link in a ke20, again custom made. weld in the mounts. sounds easy when you say it fast. lots of work. Your gonna need a custom length tails haft for any diff you pick, not a big deal for a tails haft shop but you need to measure it once your diff is in and then get one made. custom custom custom. also consider the fact everything you just mentioned is 40yrs+ old. its all going to need to be rebuilt regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altezzaclub Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 " sounds easy when you say it fast. lots of work. " Absolutely! So the easiest is to find a T-series diff from a leaf rear end & fit it. That's Corona and vans and Celica. They'll be wider so expect to move the mounts in, and drums only. If it hops around you can add a panhard and lower anti-tramp arms to help it. That's half a 5-link you've fitted. Next is an AE86 or T-series liftback or any imported Corolla that had a banjo-style Japanese diff, not the Borg-Warner. They will have coils & 5-link arms, so as Dave said, start chopping the floor and welding on mounts. I've never done it, there will some tricky questions to solve. Keep the diff as light as possible, no ute diffs, as the car is already so light it won't like another 80 to 100kg bouncing around under the tail. The 4AGE doesn't have enough torque to blow anything up unless you're particularly mechanically insensitive. We put OS Giken limited slips into the T-series diffs for the rally cars, they are high quality and seem to last. There's a list of all the Toyota diff part-numbers, their size and what car they fitted floating around the web. That's pretty handy. I kept some of it here- https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/page/5/#comments This is big project, I hope you've got some prior experience doing this sort of conversion, or a lot of patience! Make sure you have a point fixed where you bail out of it- https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64432-how-to-tackle-that-engine-conversion/ That's as important as the finely detailed list you must have before you buy anything at all, every job broken down into exactly what happens and where it fits in with all the other jobs. Project management makes or breaks these adventures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT3LovR Posted January 9 Author Report Share Posted January 9 (edited) 8 hours ago, altezzaclub said: " sounds easy when you say it fast. lots of work. " Absolutely! So the easiest is to find a T-series diff from a leaf rear end & fit it. That's Corona and vans and Celica. They'll be wider so expect to move the mounts in, and drums only. If it hops around you can add a panhard and lower anti-tramp arms to help it. That's half a 5-link you've fitted. We put OS Giken limited slips into the T-series diffs for the rally cars, they are high quality and seem to last. There's a list of all the Toyota diff part-numbers, their size and what car they fitted floating around the web. That's pretty handy. I kept some of it here- https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/page/5/#comments Thank you so much for your help so far! I think I'm gonna go with what you recommended, that being going to a TA22 rear axle and swapping in an LSD. I still have a few questions. Where could I source the diff? I want to go with a 1.5 way and for that I've only found the Kaaz diff for sale. I've yet to find the OS GIken or a Cusco. Also, since I'd have to change the bolt pattern in the rear, how hard would the conversion to a 4x114.3 be for the front? Would I have to swap the front suspension or could I just swap the hubs in the front? And, since I'd be swapping to the Celica leafs, would I also use Celica rear struts? Do I need to fab a new sway bar and sway bar mounts? UPDATE: I found the OS Giken and Cusco options. What I think I'm gonna do is put an AE86 Zenki LSD into the TA22 rear axle, which according to other forums is a direct fit. Does it sound like this will work? I still have all the same questions however about the bolt patterns, front suspension, and the rear struts. Edited January 9 by GT3LovR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altezzaclub Posted January 10 Report Share Posted January 10 (edited) The AE86 center should fit, but get the axle first and see how it fits under the car. It should be noticeably wider. Changing the front struts would be ideal, Celica or Corona 50mm ones, giving bigger brakes as standard. That introduces all the problems of ride height, LCA length & camber, steering arm fitting and the big one I forgot yesterday, are you going to use a rack or a steering box?? That decision changes how the 4AGE fits in, and then you realise why people convert to a rack on the AE71 cross-member that is made for the 4AGE. Otherwise the gearbox bellhousing won't fit very well. Hopefully things like sway bars are a minor issue. The bars to hold that axle in place will be a lot more complex, but just start off with a leaf spring setup and see how it suits you. This guy was running 180KW through leafs on a Skyline diff- https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/22610-my-2tgte-ke20/#comments Where's the KE20 fuel tank?? In the boot under the parcel shelf? Have you worked out where you're putting the surge tank and fuel pump? I'm a great believer in a small surge tank, mine is maybe 300ml so takes up no room under the 4AGE intake system and I've never had a problem with it. A big alloy radiator and an electric fan on the list? These days I'd cheat and strip the KE20, put it on a rotisserie and start from there... Is a 12month fully restored and modified 4AGE/KE20 project a problem? Cruising through the web, this is an interesting problem- "I've got a late model AE86 T series Kouki, disc brake rear end that I'm trying to fit into my Ke25, and my engineer is tell me that it can't be done. He said the only way to bring it back to ke20 1320mm width would be shorten one side about 60mm (i.e. left side as diff centre is already 20mm off centre to the right.) which will bring diff centre 40mm to left. My issue with this is that I think I'll have drive shaft clearance issues?" https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/72644-ke20-diff-to-ae86-conversion/ ..read it carefully, it explains the offset driveshaft in the Skyline Borgy in the 2TGTE link at the top & how difficult it is to shorten axles. Do you have a good engineer looking over it for certification? That's the biggest part of a project these days. Well, I can see you have weeks or reading, there is so much on the net about doing this project. https://www.toycrazy.net/tech/ke2strutupgrade.htm Edited January 10 by altezzaclub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT3LovR Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) On 1/9/2024 at 6:27 PM, altezzaclub said: These days I'd cheat and strip the KE20, put it on a rotisserie and start from there... Is a 12month fully restored and modified 4AGE/KE20 project a problem? Currently this is the plan. The car is already down to the shell getting rust repair done. I've created my plan for my project and now trying to decide the things I need done. They are almost all drivetrain/suspension related. Interior is all sorted, I have will have my built motor and trans soon. Here are my questions currently 1. I want to convert to a steering rack for the 4AGE 16v. Do I need an AE86 crossmember for this? I was planning on doing the swap seen here. Should this be okay? Do I need to convert to AE86 front suspension? Or can I use all KE2x style front coilovers for such a swap? Do you have any links for this? Should I instead do the KE70 crossmember swap? 2. What parts do I need for the fuel system? Fuel pump, lift pump, surge tank? New fuel tank? Edited January 13 by GT3LovR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parrot Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 No it's too big. Seriously, this has been discussed a bazillion times. You need to put a bit of ground work in yourself and sort this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT3LovR Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) 7 hours ago, parrot said: No it's too big. Seriously, this has been discussed a bazillion times. You need to put a bit of ground work in yourself and sort this out. I have. I have a spreadsheet full of forum links for specific parts, part swaps, conversions, etc, even including some entries from you on other forums. Some answers have proved very difficult to find, I.e. definitive answers on best R&P swaps, fuel system info, etc. The spreadsheet is here if you want to see, ignore the joking title. Please help point me the right direction if you can, I understand this is not an easy swap that requires lots of research, hence why I'm coming here for some guidance and aid. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R4dsiviVcafelLiJ4MkK78jYrd5rwWstuCp9GmgiZqs/edit#gid=0 Edited January 13 by GT3LovR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parrot Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 What other modifications have you made on cars before this one. It's a lot harder than it might seem. Not simply a matter of buying parts and bolting them together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT3LovR Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, parrot said: What other modifications have you made on cars before this one. It's a lot harder than it might seem. Not simply a matter of buying parts and bolting them together. Significantly less-hard-to-install mods. To be honest though, I'm having a shop do everything in this build; Not only do I not wanna mess it up but this chassis has a lot of sentimental value to me, I.e. I learned to drive in my KE25 and I wanna try to make it as nice as the other cars in my garage, hence the pretty much no budget approach I'm taking. The car already is a bare shell with literally nothing on it, and it's about to be 100% rust free once the repairs are done. I'm having a 4AGE and a T50 being built+remachined/reconditioned in California. As for the rest of the work, such as the T series diff conversion, AE86 front suspension, etc, is all gonna be done by a shop that has a fabricator on hand for anything I need. Basically all I've been trying to find through these forums are the parts and conversion that I need to buy/get started on so that the shop can install them once my motor is finished and the rebuilding process begins. I'm hoping it's gonna be pretty quick since the car is just a shell with no paint, no interior, no suspension, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altezzaclub Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 "The car already is a bare shell with literally nothing on it, and it's about to be 100% rust free once the repairs are done. I'm having a 4AGE and a T50 being built+remachined/reconditioned in California. As for the rest of the work, such as the T series diff conversion, AE86 front suspension, etc, is all gonna be done by a shop that has a fabricator on hand for anything I need. Basically all I've been trying to find through these forums are the parts and conversion that I need to buy/get started on so that the shop can install them once my motor is finished and the rebuilding process begins. I'm hoping it's gonna be pretty quick since the car is just a shell with no paint, no interior, no suspension, etc. " Excellent! By far the best way to tackle a project like this! Strip to a shell, rebuild shell, undercoat, fit engine/diff/suspension, strip them out, paint it all then re-fit mechanicals and wire it up. It will be great to see some photos as it progresses. Spreadsheet- The clutch master cyl can come out of a whole range of Toyotas, but the pedal box would be nice if it was stock. If you get stuck you will fine the clutch part is usually just grafted onto the auto pedal box, so probably not hard to stick a clutch pedal off another Toyota onto a KE20 frame. KE70 crossmember will be wider I expect. We had 4K motors fitted here and while the AE86/KE70 crossmembers are the same, the mounts won't take both motors. I have a Haltech Sprint 500 sitting on my desk to run my 4AGE when I have time to fit it. It came out of a race car so it does everything the 4AGE needs, but there will be extras you may or may not need with the flasher Haltechs.. I don't know if you'll find anything interesting in here- https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/12068-ke70ae71te72ae86-similarities-differences/page/2/#comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parrot Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) In a nutshell. Since you are in the US you are lucky. As these parts can be sourced locally and pretty cheap. Buy a local T series rear end out of a TE27 as it is the correct width and is already leaf spring. TA22 is wider and coil sprung (unless very early. An early (Zenki) LSD centre will bolt in possibly needing to shave the axles. If you want to convert to disc brakes that's up to you and you can research what fits. You may want to pay someone to design a fancy axle location setup if you are really going to have that much power. There is no such thing as rear struts in this shell. Buy a TE27 pedal box so you have hydraulic clutch to suit the later T50 gearbox. You can put AE86 derived coilovers in but will need TE27 steering arms to bolt them in. It will affect your front geometry as the stub axle inclination is different so you need adjustable camber tops to pull the struts in. Can only do that if you have coilovers as standard springs will hit the strut tower. Front crossmember will need to be modified whatever it comes out of. A 4A engined donor crossmember will be too wide. Have a look at local Starlets, some of which I think already have rack and pinion, and are narrow, but you will still need to do some fabrication there including modifying the engine mounts to 4A and connecting to your steering column. It all impacts steering geometry and is more complicated than it might seem. A tail shaft will need to be custom made as anyhing factory fitment will be too long. I disagree with KE70Dave about the wiring to the ECU. To get it all running properly is complicated and will directly impact the driveability and practicality of the car. If going any bigger than 270 duration cams, or fitting ITB's as you say, will require an aftermarket ECU. Not sure what smog rules are in California now but you may want to look at that first. A lot of people build cars to 95% completion, then sell them because they can't sort out the engine management properly. In a standard AE86, there are three seperate looms, engine, dash and body. If they are incomplete or not talking to each other, the car turns into a pig. Any fuel setup is going to be fully custom with the items you mentioned. The fabricator can work that out. It's going to cost you a LOT of money if someone else is doing it. Edited January 14 by parrot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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