KE70,5K, Timing Issues, Advice

[sourdough]

Hi all, 

I've been struggling trying to get my 5k running correctly for a while and would appreciate some advice.

I've recently installed a wade 169 cam into my 5k and can't seem to get it running correctly.

Mods: Wade 169 cam, extractors, webber 32/36 carb.

Ignition: C80R coil, stock bosch points dizzy (0.45mm gap), new eagle leads, NGKplugs, 

Issues: Doesnt want to idle properly and makes a horrible whirring noise. Also when it does run it seems to knock at high RPM. 

Any suggestions into what I should look into to troubleshoot the issues would be much appreciated. 

Whirring Sound:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GeIgvdsU2ebQhsbAUGJ56IygNT9gBmK3/view?usp=drive_link

 

 

Cheers

[Banjo]

Whirring sound ?  First thought that comes to mind, is clutch adjustment that is wong, & the throw out bearing is just touching the pressure plate pad ?

easy to test. Back off the adjustment, & see it it goes away.

Cheers Banjo

[sourdough]

`

8 hours ago, Banjo said:

Whirring sound ?  First thought that comes to mind, is clutch adjustment that is wong, & the throw out bearing is just touching the pressure plate pad ?

easy to test. Back off the adjustment, & see it it goes away.

Cheers Banjo

Hi Banjo,

That's a really good point!  

In my efforts to locate the sound I removed the alternator/waterpump belt to try isolate and it made no difference and even dropped the sump to check for any metal shavings.Clutch seems like a good next step, I'll do that and see if it helps. 

Cheers

 

[Banjo]

Hi Oscar, 

Quote

Also when it does run it seems to knock at high RPM. 

Too much advance; can cause pinging, at that part of the rev range. A simple timing light, & a bit of "white out", on the crankshaft pulley, & timing mark; will tell you, if that's the issue.

However, there are a few other things that can cause "pinging", & knocking at high revs; besides it being simply the result of too much advance.

This is what the "internet library" (AI), has to say about it.

Can Engine Knocking at High RPM Be Caused by Excessive Ignition Advance?

Understanding the Link Between Ignition Timing and Engine Knock

Engine knocking, also known as detonation or pinging, is a phenomenon where fuel combusts prematurely or unevenly within the combustion chamber of an internal combustion engine. This can lead to a characteristic metallic "knock" or "ping" noise, reduced efficiency, and, in severe cases, engine damage.

Ignition Timing Explained

Ignition timing refers to the point in the engine's cycle when the spark plug fires to ignite the air-fuel mixture. This is typically measured in degrees before top dead center (BTDC), indicating how far in advance of the piston reaching its uppermost position the spark is triggered.

An optimal ignition advance ensures that the peak pressure generated by combustion occurs slightly after top dead center, maximizing power and efficiency. However, if the ignition is too far advanced, the peak pressure occurs too early, forcing the piston downward while it is still traveling upward, which can lead to abnormal combustion events.

High RPM Operation and Knocking

At higher revolutions per minute (RPM), the air-fuel mixture has less time to combust completely. Engines are typically designed to run more ignition advance as RPM increases to compensate for this reduced combustion time. However, there is a limit to how much advance can be safely used.

If ignition timing is excessively advanced at high RPM:

·      The spark plug fires too early, increasing cylinder pressure and temperature before the piston reaches top dead center.

·      This can ignite the remaining mixture prematurely or cause multiple combustion fronts, which collide and result in knocking.

·      The tendency for knocking increases if the engine is under heavy load, running lean, or using low-octane fuel that is less resistant to pre-ignition.

Symptoms and Consequences

Knocking at high RPM caused by too much ignition advance can manifest as:

·      Distinct metallic pinging or knocking noises under acceleration or sustained high RPM operation

·      Loss of power and throttle response

·      Increased engine temperatures

·      Potential piston or valve damage if the condition persists

Diagnosis and Correction

If engine knocking is observed at high RPM, it is important to:

·      Check and, if necessary, retard ignition timing in the problematic rev range

·      Ensure the engine is running the correct fuel grade

·      Inspect for other causes such as excessive compression, carbon buildup, or overheating

·      Use a timing light or engine management system diagnostics to verify actual ignition timing under load

Conclusion

In summary, yes, knocking in an engine at high revolutions can result from too much ignition advance in that part of the rev range. Proper ignition timing is critical to preventing knock, maximizing performance, and protecting the engine from damage. If you suspect ignition timing is the cause of knocking, it is advisable to consult the vehicle's service manual or a qualified mechanic to adjust timing appropriately.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'd have to look up how agressive the timing is on a Wade 169 cam, as that will also effect the valve & the fuel entry to the combustion camber.  There is also the possibility, that in the reassembly of the engine the valve timing is out a little by incorrect fitting of the timing chain, & it's markings on the camshaft sprocket at TDC.

If You pull out all the spark plugs, & take the rocker cover off, you should be able to visibly see the opening & closing of all the inlet & exhaust valves, in accordance with the Wade 169 cam specification.  You willl however; need to fit a large timing disk to the cranksaft pulley, to accomlish this exercise.  This is usually carried out, by the engine assembler, at the time of re-assembly.  Was the cam & engine assembled by an engine engineering shop, or did You do it yourself ? When the engine cam timing is checked at an engine engineering shop; they usually fit a large "degree wheel", to the flywheel. 

Hope that helps point You in the right direction.  I would not suggest driving the car too much, until You get this sorted.

Cheers Banjo

Cheers Banjo

Edited July 26, 2025 by Banjo

[altezzaclub]

I thought alty bearing too, but you've eliminated that, so clutch next.

Which fuel and have you used a timing light on the ignition for the knock? I thought the 4Ks were pretty immune to pinking, but it may be the cam can increase the compression enough at higher rpm to cause it. Check the ignition advance doesn't hit over 40deg at 3500 rpm, and try 98 if you're using something less.

If not the ignition timing, then how about it leaning out at higher rpm and causing knock. A plug check from a good 3rdf gear pull up to when it knocks, just push the clutch in immediately as you turn the motor off and cruise to a stop, then pull all 4 plugs out and check their colour. You don't want to see really white plugs or tiny ceramic balls on the insulator. Much harder to diagnose these days of lead-free fuel.

Idle speed is from the idle speed screw and the idle mixture screw, and the ignition advance. Don't be afraid to give it 12deg ignition advance if that helps but watch your high rpm ignition after that.  I'm not familiar enough with the 32/36 to know where the screws are. Have you had the top off the carb and looked inside? Was it running on a car when you bought it? If its sat around dry and dirty for years there's likely tar inside the jet drillings, dirt in the jets and odd ball-bearings stuck on their seats.

[Banjo]

There are others on Rollaclub, over the years, that have used the Wade 169 32/36 cam grind, who have advised they were good.

Quote

Wade 169 grind is apparently a pretty good cam for a 5k too, will be running that in my 5K when I build it.

Just search Wade cams on Rollaclub;, & You should be able to read others comments about the Wade cam you are using.  Some of these posts go back over 15 years.

The other question I didn't ask You, in my previous post; was whether your 5K engine has hydraulic lifers, or have been replaced with solid lifters.

Cheers Banjo

Edited July 27, 2025 by Banjo

[altezzaclub]

...and BCRacing cambertops?

[sourdough]

As an update from todays troubleshooting,

I've played around with the clutch firewall adjustment with no improvement to the sound, even putting the clutch in and out doesnt seem to make a difference. 

5k has hydraulic lifters.

I installed it myself and checked it with a dial gauge at 50thou lift and a printed angle gauge on the crank. If i run out of things to troubleshoot I'll pull the motor again and recheck the timing. 
wade specs are attached.
I'm running 98. Will put some fresh fuel in just to rule that out as well.

I was using a timing light previously while doing up hill pulls to try sort out the knock, by changing the timing i can either get it to knock under no load but high rpm (neutral throttle blips, or under load at low rpm but the car drives like a dog. 

The cars not registered atm so not driving anywhere any time soon. Bit of a project for me to learn more.

I've cleaned and rebuilt the dizzy and redone the gap and now the car wont idle. I can get it going with some difficulty and throttle input. 

I'll clean the carb out as suggested to rule out clogged jets. 

Altezzaclub, I've been reading through your posts about the 5k dizzy regraph and thought maybe the stock 4k points dizzy weights may be causing issues? Not sure how to go about debugging that hypothesis.

 

Thanks for your advice guys.
 

[parrot]

I put a Wade 169 grind in my TA22 with a 2T back in the 1980's (back when they were in Berkeley or Barry Street Carlton - behind Repco).  Was a fantastic choice as a daily driver and for everything from clubsprints, autocrosses, motorkhanas you name it. I ran it on twin DCOE 40's and the thing just revved and screamed, with a street friendly power band.  A mate took it off for a spin one night and from a distance it sounded like a motorbike.  Then I lost my job and in the interests of economy I put a 32/36 DCD on it.  The reduction in intake really stifled it after the twins, and once I was employed again it was great to put them back on. Assuming you have ported and shaved the head (compression is good), I would encourage you to think about twins.

I then went with their recommended profile on their blanks with my 4AGE 16 valve.  Wade were extensively involved in a programme of camshaft development with Toyota at that time.  

I'm now building a 3K and have elected to go with the trusty 169 grind once again.

Of course Wade's have gone now.  It was a fascinating place to go, as they would be working on monstrous cams as big as a car for all manner of machinery, not just automotive.  Clive Cams (Clive Stenlake - who worked at Wade) took over the Wade profiles and he did my latest cam a couple of years ago.  He has also since sold on the business which now operates out of Wendouree.

 

[parrot]

If I was you, I would be getting the distributor regraphed to suit.  Performance Ignition in Nunawading is the place to go.

[sourdough]

Hey Parrot,

Great story, nice to know that it has good street potential.

Yeah the dream was always twins but money had to be spent on rust repair. 

I was originally running the stock carb when i put the Wade in and thought maybe the carb was limiting it. Got gifted the 32/36 and had heard its a good option so that's where I'm at now. If an affordable set of twins comes along I'll jump on it. 

I'm wanting to change to an electronic dizzy once the car is running and will get that regraphed. I was trying to minimise the amount of things I changed at once to try step through the modifications but having the stock graph might be causing more issues than its preventing. 

 

Altezzaclub, honestly can't remember what camber tops they are, I got them so long ago. Once the car is on club plates I'll be looking into upgrading the suspension properly but one step at a time!

Cheers.

 

[altezzaclub]

Even a single DCOE 45 Weber works well...  and has the right noise! Finding the manifold is half the battle.

[sourdough]

Turns out the weber carb I have is a clone and I'm unsure what the state of it is. Might go back to the stock carb while I try debug these issues. 
Do either of you know how the stock 4k carb would perform on a 5k? I understand you can drill out the jets.
 

[altezzaclub]

I would expect it will run out of puff sooner, but it should keep the mixture reasonably correct as it can only the flow the air that it can mix fuel with. So the air flow for 5000rpm on a 4K would be equivalent to 4300rpm on a 5K. It should allow you to sort out other problems while you decide on the carb situation.

Jets can be drilled, but its a very precise operation with very small drills.  You shouldn't need to drill them unless it leans out at the top.