3f Lifters

[camerondownunder88]

Hi,

OK After dinner I was still interested in these push rods so I got cracking and measuring and came up with what might be a solution.

 

First I measured the height of the rocker posts I have:

Original 5K ones: 42mm long

3K aluminum one: 45mm long.

 

So I then put a push rod in that I found tonight in all my corolla parts that is believed to be out of a K motor as it was found in superjamies parts I got off him and it is also VERY similar to a 3K push rod and looks different to a A12 push rod. Picture below:

Above the push rod is sitting vertical to show you the shallow top. This rod is the SAME length of a stock 3K-C push rod, but the bottom of the cup at the top is higher up so the adjuster doesn't have to be wound down as much to touch it. Also the diameter of the rod is the same also the construction of the rod is the same as a 3K one so I am pretty sure this is a Toyota item.

 

Well when this push rod is in the 5K with the adjuster wound down so the top of the adjuster where the screw driver slot is level with the locking nut it is about 3mm off touching the bottom of the push rod cup.

 

So I was thinking if I can drop 3mm that is the rocker touching the push rod firm with no valve lash. So screw the adjuster out this would give lash and hey the adjuster would be wound out so prob safer. Where to get 3mm the rocker posts. The ones on there now are 3mm higher than normal ones.

 

So if this works great if it doesn't. My next step will be to go to the local nuts and bolts and buy thinner nuts to place on the adjuster screws. These adjuster the locking nut is about 5mm thick. If I can get some thinner 2mm or 3mm thick locking nuts then I can wind the adjuster bolt down more to touch the push rod while having enough thread in the locking nut. As on aircraft you only need a minimum of one thread out of a bolt and 3 out at the max so thinner nuts will fit this aviation tollerence AND give me 2mm or so more play to reach these odd push rods.

 

So I believe with thinner nuts and shorter posts I will have about 5mm more length to play with and the distance from push rod cup to adjuster ball now is about 3mm so this should be ample enough to make the push rod ouch and be able to adjust it.

 

If this STILL doesn't work my mates dad owns an engine reco shop I will go there on Saturday morning and go through his unwanted rocker gear and see if I can get adjuster bolts that are longer yet screw into 3/4K rocker arms so I can use these to take up the gap.

 

So using these push rods I found fix should be easy but will just take time.

 

Since there is no push rod info added to the wiki and 3F lifter use I will do up a how to when I get mine sorted and put it in the wiki.

 

Also to make this reply longer the part number in the 5K solid lifter motor is the same as what is in the 4K-J and the 4K-U motor. I believe these were dished piston 4K motors?? I so all you need is dish piston 4K push rods and presto will fit and work The part number for the matching push rod is: 13781-13040 or 13781-13020. Also I found the australian released KE70E update model its 4K came up with having push rods the same as the solid lifter 5K so were late odel KE70's dished piston 4K's? As it didnt tell me if it was a 4K-C/E/J/Uetc?

 

Below is the IPC screen print of 4K-U push rods and 5K solid motor push rod part numbers so you can see there the SAME.

Above is part number screen for KE70 4K-U motor push rods.

Above is part numbers for the 5K motor that has solid lifters in it. Also from the same car as the wiki part numberpage for the lifters.

 

Cheers

Cameron

 

P.S. sorry for probably the lack of English skills in this reply its not my strong point..lol

[camerondownunder88]

Hi,

Just an update got out 2 rocker setups tonight short and long posts. I tried the short posts (original 5K ones) with 3K rocker arms for the adjuster. And I found 4K push rods JUST fit the motor :D

 

So on the weekend Ill get pics measurements and make a HOW TO and wiki it for the group. As solid 3F lifters and 4K-c push rods and your on a roll.

 

Cheers

Cameron

[madrolla68]

Hi,

Just an update got out 2 rocker setups tonight short and long posts. I tried the short posts (original 5K ones) with 3K rocker arms for the adjuster. And I found 4K push rods JUST fit the motor :D

 

So on the weekend Ill get pics measurements and make a HOW TO and wiki it for the group. As solid 3F lifters and 4K-c push rods and your on a roll.

 

Cheers

Cameron

 

How does the rocker geometry look cam.

[Felix]

Hopefully it is finally sorted, now you just need to get a few miles on the motor to prove its' reliability.

[camerondownunder88]

Hi,

Today I got the push rods into the 5K :D

 

I found with 3F lifters and the short steel 4K rocker posts and the adjuster wound out a fair way 4K push rods would fit if the cup was smaller. So I went to my mates engine reco shop to ask him if it is possible to grind down the cup on a push rod to make it fit. He said this is OK as he had a hot 3K once the block adn head was shaved so much before the push rods foweled on the rockers so he ground them down to fit on the cup.

 

So I took 8 4K push rods I had to the grinder made the cups smaller and put them in. They fit :) Below is a picture of them installed and all the tappet gap set right:

 

I found but the casting of some rockers is POOR there are dags all over them. So I found after grinding some 4K rods down to a safe limit they would still hit slightly on about 2 of the push rods. So Not having the time to again remove the rocker gear I put the motor together and plan to test the motor running in the KE15 and see if I blow a push rod. If I do I can look to see what one goes and see if it was one hitting the rocker.

 

But some fit like they were made to be in there from the factory and have a good size cup on them still.

 

So after I test run this motor one day I plan to see if the push rods work. If they go fine I will track down 8 more 4K push rods and those ones put on a lathe and take down properly so there all even and smoother. I also have a spare set of rockers here at home so I will grind them a bit and tidy them up and get them ready to install into the 5K so if I have push rod trouble from hitting the rockers on about 2 of them I can put this set in dag free to get more clearance.

 

Also does anyone in the Ipswich area have any 4K push rods at all? I will need a few more to get another set and be able to lathe them down so if anyone has any not being used PM me.

 

Cheers

Cameron

 

Also if all goes well I'll post this how to in the WIKI

[Felix]

Those adjuster screws are wound up a long way. I'd say they will hit the underside of your rocker cover pretty badly.

[madrolla68]

Those adjuster screws are wound up a long way. I'd say they will hit the underside of your rocker cover pretty badly.

 

 

Yeah i thought of that but its only a small cam i think,

 

Pay to check that cam as felix has said.

[kickn5k]

So if a solid SBC/Holden lifter with A12 pushrods work, i was thinking that if you didn`t want to change from hydraulic cam, then a bigish regrind on a hydraulic cam with anti pump up SBC/Holden lifters would have to be at least better than a std setup.

Just thought it may work but in saying that I'm still not sure, any thoughts?

 

stu.

[madrolla68]

So if a solid SBC/Holden lifter with A12 pushrods work, i was thinking that if you didn`t want to change from hydraulic cam, then a bigish regrind on a hydraulic cam with anti pump up SBC/Holden lifters would have to be at least better than a std setup.

Just thought it may work but in saying that I'm still not sure, any thoughts?

 

stu.

 

Yeah it would work but not real sure if you would gain much, i mean its not like they are real noisy flat tappet engines are they.

 

Only thing is I'm not sure exactly what the difference in installed lifter height it is to a std toyota one so you may need to change to A12 pushrods and adjustable rocker gear anyway.

[Xany]

Gday guys, just thought i'd dig this up as i have a problem with a car that i'm working on atm.....i wanted to see what you guys thought.

 

Atm the car has a hydro cam in it, but we are converting to solid AT-992 Lifters and A12 pushrods.....it seems as though the a12's are too long to fit under the rockers.....the only thing i can think of is the pedestal height that is different. I think atm its got 3K late style rocker gear (steel posts).....would there be any merit in looking for different pedestals? Or do you think there may be something else at play?

 

Thanks.

[camerondownunder88]

Hi Xany,

First thing while doing this conversion for my self I looked at using late steel and early aluminum posts for the rocker gear. And I can tell you it wont make a difference. As the rocker posts I had and I got lots of them the center hold in the post was the same height. So no actual LIFT as such will be gained.

 

But just a though on more info that i didn't include in the past on my 3F conversion.

 

I found slightly ground down 4K rods on 3F lifters will work (my 5K has a shaved head so if yours is stock well it would work better). BUT about 2 of my push rods at full lift JUST hit on the rocker and I didn't want to turn down the push rod cup any more as I though it would be to shallow.

 

So what I did is I took the rockers off the shaft and the under side of them where the push rod adjuster screws through I ground them down to make it thinner. This gave me more clearance and if you go far enough you can fit a 4K push rod in with out cutting the cup at all so you could also try grinding the rockers. Do it slowly of course and a bit off a push rod and rocker would work so both items retain a bit more metal than just one losing lots.

 

Now I haven't started my 5K with this setup YET. BUT cranking it over no issues it all works lifts and does the job at 250RPM so I guess now I have an exhaust for the KE15 I will actually start it this weekend for the first time in 6months so I will post again if I can say this setup WORKS at high rpm if it does you could copy me and it will work.

 

But as for your conversion. Do you know if there were 2 different length A12 push rods or are they really A12 push rods?

 

Also is the cylinder head on your motor shave? Do you run more cam lift? Are the valve stems longer pushing the rocker over more causing push rods not to fit? Are the lifters you have longer etc?

 

And how far off fitting are they Xany? Just a bit more info and it would be better.

 

Cheers

Cameron

[Felix]

Xany, what head is on it? 5k?

 

From what I have seen pretty much every one who has done the chev lifter conversion with a12 pushrods has used a 3k head which is taller than a 5k one. Maybe this is the difference between the setup in your car and the one you are currently playing with...

[Xany]

Thanks doug....i think that may be the problem....you say you use 4K rods and the orginal lifters with the guts ripped out and the seat pushed to the bottom correct?

[Felix]

Zany, yep you got the lifters correct. I am running 3k pushrods though as they are a bit shorter, though I think you worked that out by your post where you are chasing some 3k pushrods.

 

My setup has been going strong for about 3 years now with the 5k head. Didn't cost a cent. :P Only hassle I ever had was initially the adjusters just tapping on the underside of the rocker cover which was remedied with a dremel. K pushrods would be the perfect length if you can find some.

Edited September 21, 2007 by Felix