Aftermarket Ecu Trigger

[Twinky]

Hi guys,

 

I'll get started with this question, How do I set up the trigger system on a 5k?

AAAANNNND...... How can I do this without blowing the bank?

Thirdly before anyone says talk to Haltech support I already have and they have been less than helpfull

by throwing me generic responses and shoving god damn reluctor adaptor pinouts in my face which I didn't ask for in the first place.

 

The long story.

 

I am on the path of going EFI on my 5k and have come to a roadblock.

I thought I had everything sorted and knew everything I needed to know.

Until I got to the last part, the Trigger!!! For those of you who do not know

what I am talking about you might as well not read mutch further unless you have the same issue (which I doubt).

 

So... Where the hell do I start? I need a dam trigger system and have been pointed in many directions but see possible flaws in each.

Firstly some info on my setup.

 

Haltech E6 Fuel and ignition control (only one ignition output so a distributorless is out of the question at this stage)

For those who don't know this, the older model Haltechs sutch as mine require a square wave input sutch as a Hall effect signal.

I can use a reluctor signal but requre a RA10 reluctor adaptor, which brings on one option of a trigger.

 

I have the Electronic distributor which has an internal reluctor pickup. At first I thought cool this is going to be easy!

But then I thought that the distributor would actually ignite as soon as it can see the reluctor signal. This can not work

on an ECU setup becasue the ECU needs to see that signal about 70 Deg BTC sooo is that an option that I should forget about or is there

more to it than I am thinking? I can't rotate the shaft back can I? I was thinking of setting up the Dizzy 70 deg out and then letting the ECU fire the ignitor.

 

So on to the simplest but most expensive setup. It's what they call a flying magnet setup. Basically I need to make two aluminium discs

that bolts up to the crank and camshaft pulleys and mount rare earth magnets at 180 degrees apart set at 70 Deg BTC as they pass the pickup. The problem is that

each Hall effect sensor costs $160 and I need two, one for trigger and one for home. I was wondering If any common EFI cars came out with Hall Effect sensors

that I would be able to raid at my local wreckers. Most that I have seen have been reluctor type.

 

So what would you guys do in this situation? I have the manual and it does not say anything about this except for a diagram on how to mount the flying magnet setup.

The book does not even mention what the Home signal needs to be, would it be TDC on Cyl No:1??

 

I have talked to the Haltech technical support that is supposedly a great team, this is what they E-mailed me:

 

Hello Alexey,

 

The E6 is no longer supperted by Haltech as the unit is more than 20 years old. You will need to visit your Haltech tuner to have the ECU setup and tuned in your specific application.

 

I have added the Haltech RA10 reluctor adaptor wiring diagrams to this mail for you which is the part you will require to mate your reluctor crank angle sensor to your Hall effect E6 unit.

 

 

This is the same response evey time I send them a question, maybe they have me on a do not deal with customer list?

 

If I had the money I would have just simply bought a new model ECU but I had this laying in my shed for the past couple of years

and only cost me $350 so I might as well use it.

 

 

Sooooo any thoughts?

 

Cheers

Edited May 22, 2011 by Twinky

[LittleRedSpirit]

http://enjukuracing.com/techno-tuning-4age-crank-pulley-edis-trigger-wheel-p-8380.html

 

Need a trigger wheel like this.

 

http://sccatalog.honeywell.com/pdbdownload/images/1gt101dc.pdf

 

and a sensor similar to this.

 

I just bought a sensor as shown above for wheel speed. Its a hall effect sensor, the magnet's in the sensor so you just need a tooth to make a pulse with it. It was $70 delivered or so. Bought from RS online, and fast delivery too, free within 2 days.

 

The more theeth, the more data your ecu has to manage injectors and triggering, you can't go full sequential unless you have the right amount of triggering info so it knows which cylinder is TDC on the intake stroke.

[Twinky]

Awesome! I downloaded a more detailed datasheet for the 1gt101dc and it does produce a square wave!

The problem with the E6 is that there are no options in the software to use multitooth wheels.

So I will be using an almost identical setup as shown in that sensors PDF. I'll see if any car has it in the scrap yard

and get it even cheaper. Element14 also has them but looks like RS is a bit cheaper. So if I can't find it at the wreckers I'll get them from RS.

 

Awesome dude!

[LittleRedSpirit]

Yeah some EMS are fussy about how many tooth on the wheel and where the missing tooth is, I'm unsure about the particular unit you describe, but gebnerally they need the missing tooth to reference intake or exhaust stroke and do the full sequential ignition/injection if thats what youre going for, if your happy with wasted spark and batch fire, which should be adequate for an EMS of that vintage, and K motor, then you should be able to finish it up with as little as a cistom brakct to hold each sensor and a couple of neatly filed lumps of weld on your pulleys.

 

Happy to help. :dance: :rolls:

[Twinky]

Here is a download link to the control software just as a reference.

 

http://www.haltech.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/e6_58.zip

 

Tip: This software was designed for windows 3.1 so the title screen appears a bit fudged.

Press "N" when it loads up, from there it's just pushing the corresponding buttons to traverse

through the menus. The one you want to look at is the Engine Identification menu by pressing "I"

You will see that there isn't alot of options there to mess around with for the ignition.

[LittleRedSpirit]

Holy shit thats an old control app.

 

Suits the period of the car though, top points for period correct.

 

Yes mimal settings, and none for any different trigger wheels. I guess you do have to stick to a 2 tooth wheel.

[Twinky]

I even have a period correct windows 3.1 laptop :D

[LittleRedSpirit]

lolz

[Evan G]

7k have a crank angle sensor built inside the dissy. i think you could use this in a 5k with aftermarket ecu like mhmills is going to run

[Taz_Rx]

I am just running an external ignitor elec dizzy as my trigger. Has a small cap inline but thats nothing. Sends square way to my wolf and then the dizy cap for spark distro duites. So no multi-coil setup or sequential injection but I still have control of spark advance/retard.

 

Mine is set to 60*BTDC. This is so the ECU has room to advance. If it was set to 20*BTDC the ECU can only add 20* of timing.

 

Off topic - But my wolf has an add-on program to allow you to run up to 120*....... what the hell would need 120* of advance!!!!!

[Twinky]

I am just running an external ignitor elec dizzy as my trigger. Has a small cap inline but thats nothing. Sends square way to my wolf and then the dizy cap for spark distro duites. So no multi-coil setup or sequential injection but I still have control of spark advance/retard.

 

Mine is set to 60*BTDC. This is so the ECU has room to advance. If it was set to 20*BTDC the ECU can only add 20* of timing.

 

Off topic - But my wolf has an add-on program to allow you to run up to 120*....... what the hell would need 120* of advance!!!!!

 

Where did you get said dizzy? Would make life alot easier! My electronic dizzy has an internal ignitor but puts out a reluctor signal,

which looks like a saw tooth waveform. I think this would be the same case in the 7K but I am unsure. Just finding the stuff here in SA is a

little bit difficult and time consuming. A place that would carry them would be City auto dismantlers but they are rip-off merchants.

Just as an example of their rip-offs I was quoted $160 for a 4k carby that wasn't even rebuilt. And then they said to me it would cost me

another $100 for them to rebuild it.

 

In a new development I braved the rains at U-Pull it and found myself an optical trigger from a daihatsu! or hyundai? can't quite remember.

It runs off the cam and has a separate home trigger! I'll test it at work today and get some results.

[Twinky]

Ok so my luck has kicked in, the first optical pickup I found had a dead "Home" signal. I went back the next day

and luckily found another one, tested it back at work and the "Trigger" signal was stuffed. Just my luck.

 

During my search for the optical trigger I decided to get some plan B trigger devices. Hyundai have 3 wire Hall effect sensors

in most of thier cars so it wasn't difficult to find them and they were pretty cheap, about $10 from memory. Got back home

and wired it up, BINGO!!!! Full square wave signal!! Very stable and responsive. For anyone that is trying to do the same thing

here is a wiring diagram to get the signal out.

 

 

So that is the wiring diagram if you were to do a benchtop test to make sure that the sensor is functioning.

The ECU should have internal circuitry to reflect the voltage divider. The haltech manual just shows the sensor directly plugging into

the ECU so I would assume that it does not need to have the divider put in place. The sensor works by having a voltage reference from the input voltage

and when a ferrous material enters the field it develops a voltage at a 90 degree phase difference and an internal switch turns it off.

So basically the unit runs at a constant voltage (Ref Voltage) and then goes low when a tooth passes. Although using something like a piece of

ferrous metal will trigger the device it requires a very tiny air gap, almost 1mm. So by placing a magnet on the metal you can increase the gap to 5mm

and still have a very reliable, strong signal. For the best results just use a magnet as a tooth and you can get a distance of around 1.5cm, I was using

a hard drive magnet in that test so depending on magnet strength is how big the air gap has to be. To be safe an air gap of 5mm would be ideal.

 

Now I can start to make the trigger wheel!

[Mitch-12]

i have ls1 coils full seq spark and injection m48 motec ign expander with a magna optical dizzy has ref and sync in it :)

[altezzaclub]

faaark! I might as well be reading a website in Russian or Chinese...

 

Definitely stick to carbs now! :laff:

[Twinky]

Did you mod the dizzy or strip the internals for the optical gear?