ROLLN'03 Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Hey guys.... Just a question, something thats been on my mind for a while now...... Considering putting twin side drafts on a 4age...... Was wondering if anyone has had any experience in this department.... My main concern is controlling spark....... Will the standard dizzy from the EFI engine system do the job? I know its a N00B question... But I'm lost.... Ta, Josh :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROLLN'03 Posted June 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 OK, from what Ive found: You can convert to twin side draft carbs on the 4age, but the dizzy has to be changed to one with a mechanical advance system etc. Apartently there is a few options you can use, but all must be converted with the standard 4age dizzy... You can use: a 4ac dizzy, a 3t / 4k dizzy hybrid etc.... Any other information / definate answers etc would be much appreciated.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medicine_Man Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 (edited) I think you can still use the standard ECU to control the Ignition? Just you don't have an air temp sensor / map sensor / throttle position sensor / Injectors. From what I understand the standard 4AGE ecus will still run with certain sensors disconnected provided they get spark and fuel.. Just makes it a not so ideal tune.. Sounds like you still get the rev limit with the standard ECU too.. http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=m...rt=0#msg_116800 have a read of the above link too, Has some interesting stuff.. Should make a wiki article up about this.. Edited June 27, 2006 by Medicine_Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boost+k Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 i'd look into a 3a-h motor from a toyota corolla II they had elec dissys.... donno if it would work but i don't see why not? i'm pretty sure the 4k dissy fit in but run the other way so you can't use the vac advance :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 why not? twin sidies will go harder than a stock 4age injection setup. carbs are a lot easier/cheaper to tune for different engine combos than stock efi. won't have the all round drivability or fuel efficiency of efi though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Get Silvertop ITBs and enjoy the luxury of EFI just make sure you have plenty of spare $$$. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Taken from Phil Bradshaws Homepage. Carburettor Ignition Systems There are a few different options to get the ignition system to run with the engine converted to carburettors. One way is to use a stock distributor but operate it via an aftermarket ignition module. These can work well, but cost the equivalent of about $250 US in New Zealand. Bill Sherwood (crazy damn Australian) has his AE 86 Sprinter running a fuel only aftermarket ECU EFI system. His stock distributor is controlled by Bosch ignition module part no 249-9-222-067-016. It does not allow advance, but this may not be a real issue for you if you are track racing etc. Bill's car is street driven and works OK. The module has 4 terminals. On Bill's car (first generation 4AGE) Terminal '15' is fed with 12 volts when the ignition is turned on. Terminal '16' is wired to the negative post on the coil (any old coil will do). Terminal '7' goes to the black wire coming from the distributor. Terminal '3' is connected to the red wire. The white wire is cut and not used. The modules cost about $30 US from a Bosch Dealer. Bill has a huge page on all things automotive, including modifying the 4AGE up to about 240hp - check it out here Another option is to replace the 4AGE distributor with a more conventional one. 2T or 2K electronic ignition type distributors are a popular option, but require a bit of modifying to fit, including fitment of the 4AGE distributor drive gear. You can then run vacuum and mechanical advance and use the standard coil/igniter pack. Ross Mackenzie runs a 'Fraser' Lotus 7 replica powered by a 3SGE on carbs. He uses a Nissan distributor to run his engine, as follows: "The dizzy in my car is from a Nissan E15 non turbo engine. These were fitted to mid 80's Pulsars and Sentras (probably others as well). The end of the dizzy body needs to be machined down to match the std 3SGE dizzy dimensions as does the end of the shaft, which is then fitted with the Toyota drive gear. A clamping block needs to be machined (or filed). This block is bolted to one of the original clamping holes on the head. I have utilised the Nissan adjustment slot which bolts to the clamping block, giving a good range of rotation. Once the dizzy is positioned on the engine the basic geometry of the block and dizzy adjustment will become self evident. The vacuum advance is removed and the base plate is locked down. I have sealed the hole with a piece of aluminum glued in place with Devcon. Use the standard Nissan dizzy cap and aftermarket 8mm leads. If you wish to retain the Toyota plug end they will have to be drilled out to accept the 8mm leads. I guess you could use aftermarket ones. All the electrics are contained in the dizzy (no separate igniter) with only 2 wires. On mine they are blue (-ve) and black and white (+ve). Just hook them up to the coil. The advance is 15-17 degrees at idle and 32-34 degrees at around 3000 rpm. According to Lynn Rogers and Neil Fraser, this is perfect for the 3SGE. Total cost.... around $US 75.00 including Dizzy, new rotor, cap and leads. I got the machining for free. To answer your question about why I removed the mechanical advance - well, because I was told to. I'm not sure of the reason for only using mechanical advance, but it is an old method. I think that it is because we are already running so much advance at idle (16 degrees-ish on mine) that it just isn't required. Regardless of theories it works well. It is pretty much the same as far as the advance curve goes - I don't have a good understanding of the intricacies of this subject, but at the end of the day this particular dizzy has the required range and rate of advance. I believe that the advance curve is similar to that in the custom computers - remember that this mod has only been used on carbed engines. Most of us are running 45mm DHLA or DCOEs with 40mm chokes and jetted to suit the intended use (road or track)." I would be curious to know if it goes any different with the vacuum advance connected. Also the distributor off the 3A engine looks like it may have some promise - it is all self contained also. If anyone has managed to modify one to run a 4AGE please let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Indeed, Just go spend some money on the engine as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 (edited) well on pretty much anything other than a stock 20v, you will need to have an aftermarket ECU, to run ITBs. last time i checked you were looking at over a grand for just the computer, plus wiring, plus dyno time. etc... a set of webers and manifold will be around a grand. Edited June 28, 2006 by Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medicine_Man Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 It's all about the atomisation of the fuel Nick, The sidedraft webers are more superior in that regard.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddy Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Time to jump on the bandwagon before it gets too crowded and closed ;) First thing that springs to mind with these sort of topics is deciding the Fact from Fiction from Opinion. With that said, theres a bit of all 3 of those things in here. From what i have been taught, not necessarily tested tho; Delortoes can be more expensive to get parts for. Weber's are a little more common. Sidedraft carburation has airspeed, where as throttle body applications don't. Eg. Venturi's I'm liking what felix said - twin sidies will go harder than a stock 4age injection setup. carbs are a lot easier/cheaper to tune for different engine combos than stock efi, altho won't have the all round drivability or fuel efficiency of efi. Nick, you say porting can be done for free; after havin a good go at it, and spending many hours at it, i actually would tend to say its anything But free; Air compressor / lines / air tools / dremel / dremel cutting bits / compound / emery wheels / papers... Besides, anyone can use a dremel. But it takes guidance / know what needs to be done to actually create airspeed, apposed to slowing it down by making those ports nice and mofo big :jamie: With all of that said, id be extremely tempted to put a set of side drafts on the 4age; you just can't beat the sound, the throttle response, the experience :dance: . But when cut comes to shuv, not having to heat manifolds and worrying about fuel vaporisation, or air heat... the list goes on - efi is good in that aspect. Get the coldest air in, and put the correct amount of fuel in, every time, all the time. I don't understand why they don't design independent throttle body setups with a venturi effect to get some airspeed happening? hell, why not get a computer to control everything, so you can try and maintain the optimum air speed ratio with relation to power & still being able to have all the benefits of the carburetor design? Re: the movie - 4age on carbs. if you don't like that sound, you have problems :dance: RunofHybrid.WMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROLLN'03 Posted June 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 (edited) The topic is very debated - I see..... :jamie: I always loved carbs, and the ability to throw a 4age engine package into any car with the simplicity of a carb setup would be awesome... WHY?: Everyone these days is going for more power or turbo... Personnal preference I spose... Just always loved 4age, Cams, ITBs = Simple... Mattyshop on AE86DC has converted his 4age over to S/T ITBs while still running the standard ECU... ;) Great discussion... Edited June 28, 2006 by ROLLN'03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROLLN'03 Posted June 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forum/in...?showtopic=5125 Check this out!.... B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 that is pretty cool. i see he ended up going with aftermarket management to tune it properly. pity you can't reprogram the denso ECU's. ;) i know you can always run a piggyback computer to alter mixtures, but the ignition timing maps can't be changed. well you can always alter base timing, but that has a global affect on timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medicine_Man Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Could probably do it with one of those razorback piggyback ECUs that that guy we met on one of the last cruises was using.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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