Ke70 Suspension

[Arnotjie]

Hi everyone.

First time poster here, so go easy on me. haha.

I'm buying my first corolla tomorrow (hopefully). Its a 1984 Ke70, completely stock with a 4k and a 4 speed. I'm planning on making a big project out of it in a while, but for now it will be my daily drive (and my first car). As I won't be able to do an engine swap on my P's, I decided to leave that stock and work on suspension, brakes and cosmetics now, so everything is in place when I can do the swap. I only have a basic knowledge about cars, but I really want to do as much of the work myself (you have to learn somewhere, haha). So all of this will be a learning experience for me.

 

First order of business for me is suspension.

Now, I am not 100% sure about the engine I want to drop in eventually, but it would most likely be a SR20DET or 3sge.

Would it be better to do the suspension properly for those engines now, or would the spring rates etc be completely wrong for the weight of the 4k engine? considering the 4k will stay for at least another 2 years.

 

If it would be worth it, I would love to get some suggestions from you guys about what to get.

If not, I would still like to lower the car, and improve handling a little but I don't want to spend too much if I just have to upgrade it again later. so any suggestions for that setup would be greatly appreciated too.

 

I'm obviously planning on fitting bigger brakes and I also want to run 15x8s for wheels. (I don't know if that would change anything)

 

Please keep in mind that I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing, so the simpler the better. Haha

 

Thanks in advance

Arno

[bwendaman]

lowered king springs $350 ;)

[snot35]

Buy some AE86 struts converted to coil over. Easy to get many different spring rates, ride height adjustment, plenty of shock options and brake upgrade kits.

 

You'll be able to tune the handling now and then easily tune it again when you change to a bigger engine and brake setup.

 

Rear just good shocks and springs that are reasonably matched to the front.

[corolla_bitten]

hi there, if you are serious about putting a sr20 into it in a few years, ive heard that silvia s13 front suspension will bolt straight in, if this is correct, you can use the silvia brakes, which should pass engineers when you have the sr20, as the sr20 came in the s13. do sum more research, cause i know there are heaps of upgrades for s13's, which will fit onto the s13 frontend. :)

[JamieT]

If you want to run 15x8s youll beed to roll the guards for them to fit.

[LittleRedSpirit]

Sr20 isn't a heavy engine, even compared to a k series. Id say your spring rates will be close if you get it setup for a k series engine.

 

Its a long process. Most people never actually achieve anything useful when modifying the suspension because they never even knew what a good condition standard car feels like.

 

1. Maintenance. Your KE70 is guaranteed to be flogged out underneath, so check the ball joints, bushes, inspect all arms and rods for bends and cracks. Inspect their mounting points for impact damage. Replace whats broken. the steering rack will be f@$ked, so rebuild that with a quaife rack and pinion, since you can't get the parts from Toyota any more. Check wheel bearings, and repack if need be. Service the brakes, machine the rotors and replace the pads if they are worn out. Might even need new rotors.

 

2. Improvements. Do some research. Ask yourself, what you want the car for? Will it be used for motorsport or will it be used for a street car or all purpose. Point being, if its your daily there are some limits about what you should do. Read the guide to light vehicle modification in your state. Once you are informed, talk to others who have done a similar thing and look for ideas/products/parts to utilise to improve your car. If someone tells you to put cut falcon springs and Sierra shocks, give them several uppercuts and go find someone who has actually though about it to ask. If they say that then you can instantly know they only know whatever random bs some drift kid has told them, and never done any actual development of their car. You must realise the difference between a high level circuit race car and a high spec drifter is minimal. So build it for grip with the K engine and when you swap for an sr20 you can most likely swap one swaybar and adjust your dampers to attain an easily driftable (and controllable) car. If you don't know what damper, a swaybar or a control arm does, you need to start with basics and learn that. If you do not understand what the effect of changing it will be, you have no business changing it.

 

3. Testing. Make one change at a time, where possible, otherwise you will never know what has caused the desirable or undesirable effects that you have created. Drive around until you can detect the change, either positive or negative and determine whether it was a valid modification. Be aware that adding too much caster will create high speed oversteer (which some people mistake for a drift). If you go too low, the dampers wont work right, if you use too stiff a spring, especially on the rear then you will never achieve rear end grip. Swaybars are the last thing you should change once the car has decent spring rates. Id suggest 6kg/mm maximum in the front and no more than 3.5kg/mm in the rear.

[Arnotjie]

Thanks For all the replies, I really appreciate it.

 

I bought the car off an old lady who has owned it since new, so I don't think the car has had a very hard life. But that being said, it has done almost 300 thousand k's, so I know a lot of parts will need replacing. I am picking the car up on the weekend, so I will be able to start looking for any damaged parts. How do you identify worn out ball joints, bushes and wheel bearings?

 

I have started reading up on suspension, and I'm slowly starting to get a better understanding of it. I can find my way around engines alright, but when it comes to suspension, especially setup, I'm clueless.

 

This will be my daily drive, so it will have to be legal, but I will definitely be taking it on the track every other weekend so I still want a decent setup. Luckily QLD's laws on suspension doesn't look too harsh so I should be able to get something decent. Here's what I found on Queensland transport

 

Ground clearance of

vehicle

The ground clearance of the fully laden vehicle must continue to comply

with the Australian Design Rules (ADRs) and the Transport Operations

(Road Use Management) Regulation 1995 at all times.

The following requirements must be meet:

· The ground clearance must not be less than 100 mm within 1 m of

an axle and the vehicle must clear a peak with a gradient of 1:15 on

each side;

· The suspension travel in the bump or rebound mode must not be

altered by more than one third of that specified by the original

vehicle manufacturer;

· The original manufacturer’s bump stops must not be altered;

· The fitting of drop spindles or similar devices to lower the ground

clearance of the vehicle on the axle assembly is not permitted.

 

I will be doing everything in phases, I don't have the funds to try and do everything at once unfortunately. So after driving the car, I definitely have to replace the shocks, and do something about the brakes. I will put in a sway bar etc, but at a later date. I figured while I'm at replacing the shocks, I might as well put in a set of coilovers. I found a company that custom make them for you, either to your exact specs, or if you are unsure, like me, you can tell them what you will be using the car for, and they can design them for you.

 

Is this a good idea?

Also, is it worth it to get coilovers front and rear? will there be a big improvement over a normal spring and damper setup in the rear?

 

I might start a new thread for the brakes, but I'll see if I get any replies first.

When I drove the car on the weekend, the brakes were shocking. So much so that I really was worried about stopping in time. Is that just how the ke's brakes are, or does it just need new pads/rotors? Just want to know if I should start looking at brake upgrades now, or if I can do it later.

 

cheers

[altezzaclub]

What was shocking about the brakes? What happened if you pushed harder? They will lock up the fronts no problem, and any more braking than that is wasted.

 

Check the rotors and replace pads if needed.

 

Just get it back to new condition and see what you don't like. Most p-platers go too low, its just a fact of life, and with all the steering angles out of kilter the car doesn't handle well at all. I've got cut springs, 30mm off the free spring length a the front (one coil) and 1.5coils off the back. That gives a ground to mudguad height of 610mm front and rear, compared to stock 635 front, 645 rear.

 

The car doesn't look lowered at all, but the suspension is stiffer and it runs a Celica rear sway & Corona front LCAs.

 

I'm happy with cheap-ass mods, & having bought a very nice '95 SSS Pulsar for $2500 today, I can't see the point of pouring money into the KE70. Mine cost $1800 with 110,000km, and probably looks a neat and tidy as yours. So try not to screw it up with bad modifications, you can buy something faster just as cheap instead of ruining a nice original car.

 

http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/

 

 

[Arnotjie]

The brakes definitely did not lock up, no matter how hard I pushed. But I guess its just the rotors or pads. I hope it's just the pads though, will be able to check it out once I get it on Saturday.

 

I wasn't planning on going too low, as I want to fit 15x8 wheels front and rear, and I've never been a big fan of "slammed" rides anyway. But, I don't want the car to sit like a 4wd, as it currently is, either.

 

My intention when I bought the car was to have it as a project car, mainly so I can learn about working on cars and find my way around them better. So I will definitely be working on it, and modifying it. But I'm not a bogan who is going to ruin the car with crappy modifications. The whole Idea is to improve the corolla, and I intend to do all of it properly. That's why I came here, to try and get as much advice as possible so I don't stuff it up. And I know i could probably go out and buy a faster car for the same cash and a lot less effort, But where's the fun in that?

 

Anyway, Thanks for all the input so far, it has really helped. I would still like to know what you guys think of going with custom coilovers front and rear? Is it worth it or not?

[altezzaclub]

Is it worth it or not?

 

I'd say 'no', but some guys will say 'yes'. It depends on how much money you want to spend and what you will do with the car.

 

If you're going to race it seriously then I'm sure you are better off with coilovers, mainly because you can easily change spring rates and shock rates on that expensive gear, as well as ride height. That's a two-edged sword though, as lowering the car will alter all the suspension geometry and it will need aligning before you drive it seriously anyway..

 

I'd set up the best suspension I could with what is there, do the brakes and then the engine, and have some fun for a year. I'm sure you will find that the lack of a limited slip diff is the biggest failing, then the gearbox ratios, then the suspension.

 

 

[Arnotjie]

Okay, I found coilovers at a pretty decent price, and since I have to replace the shocks in any case, I reckon I will just do the upgrade.

 

What I want to find out is: What exactly is the difference between ae86 struts and ke70 struts? I'm asking because the coilovers are custom made, So I can order them to be a straight fit. But are there any other advantages to the ae86 struts except that they are already coilovers? Like maybe brake modifications etc?

 

I basically want to know what to order. Straight up ke70 coilovers, ae86 coilovers, or a cross between the two?

 

Cheers

[ke70dave]

the onyl difference between ke70 and ae86 struts is the ae86 struts are a little bigger in diameter, and accept a larger range of shock absorbers. have a google on how to put ae86 stuff in a ke70, you arent a pioneer;)

 

as far as i know, there are no performance orientated shock absorbers around that fit into a ke70 shock tube.

 

oh and the brakes are different, ae86 brakes are bigger, and there are alot of ae86 brake upgrades around that bolt onto the standard ae86 strut.

 

my suggestion is seriously research your options before buying any "coilovers". As alot of off the shelf products are very expensive and contain garbage shocks. And will end up bouncing you off the road.

 

you want to be looking into subjects such as short stroke, captive springs, mono vs multi shock tubes, lots to consider!

[Arnotjie]

Well thanks again for all the help. It really is appreciated.

Okay, so what I've learnt since last:

 

1. Captive springs are self-retaining in their seats at full extension.

2. The difference between mono and dual shock tubes.

3. ae86 struts are 51mm OD vs 45mm OD for Ke70

4. to fit ae86 struts in a Ke70 you need new steering arms, and swap the ke70 strut tops over. (I think that's all?) http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/37906-ae86-struts-into-ke70/

5. I'm struggling to find an exact definition of short stroke shocks, but I assume it means the shocks have a shorter actual stroke, which would also lead to a shorter physical length. Is that right?

 

Okay. so heres a link for the coilovers I'm interested in getting:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110622173178?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_10106wt_1037

 

You can order them in both mono and dual tube. I'll probably go for dual tube as it will be a street car.

Although it doesn't say anything, I assume they are captive (I'll confirm that when I order them)

Since they are custom built to your specifications, I assume you can specify the length of the stroke.

You can custom order for your preferred spring rates and ride heights.

 

Questions I still have:

1. Can you bolt ae86 brakes directly to ke70 struts? They are both 114.3x4 aren't they?

2. Would the OD of the struts even matter if I order these? Won't they all be the same OD from the company?

 

Basically:

Do I just order coilovers for an ae86 from them and get a new steering arm?

Or do I just get ones kor a Ke70?

 

All of that is for the front. What do i do for the rear?

 

Thanks

 

Arno

[snot35]

I'm pretty sure the brakes won't bolt on. What you're looking at is the bolt distance on the calipers/backing plates depending on what they supply. You'd have to see what they give you. 114.3 is just the pitch of the wheel bolts on whatever hub you use. KE70 and AE86 both have that pitch, but brake calipers and discs are all different.

 

You will need steering arms and you'll need to find out if caliper mounts are included, or you'll have to find some, along with calipers, hubs and discs.

 

I wouldn't get KE70 anything if you're going to spend that sort of money on a setup. The brakes are tiny.

[Arnotjie]

Thanks.

 

Okay. So for the front I need

Ae86 coilovers

ae86 steering arms

ae86 hubs

ae86 rotors

ae86 calipers and possibly caliper mounts.

 

I might need to replace the ke70's steering rack too cause i'm guessing it'll be stuffed. Is an Ae86 power steering rack a straight fit in a Ke70? because I have seen one for sale.

 

And then for the rear:

Just coilovers made for a ke70 right?

 

If there is anything else I am missing please let me know.

 

Cheers