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4Age Intermittent Starting Issues.


B.L.Z.BUB
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I think I had a thread about this before but I want to start a fresh one as I did a bit of work tonight to try and figure it out.

 

The problem:

Intermittent starting issues, sometimes it will start fine, other times the starter motor will struggle, even stop turning over. Sometimes when it does this it will run but it will run like complete crap blowing black shit out the exhaust.

 

Things I have tested:

The starter is hard wired to a push start button, I bypassed the button, its fine.

When the car is in the on but not run position the starter motor will crank fine.

In the ON position it will occasionally struggle to crank, when it does this my volt meter will drop out to under 8. When it starts properly the volts drop to around 10.

The coil was arcing but I seem to have sorted that.

I put the Falcon battery in with the same problems.

New plugs and leads (the right ones) problem was there before this anyway.

Checked all my grounds, sanded and cleaned. (the ground wire from the gear box seems quite thin)

When it struggles to start the HU will lose power, when it starts fine it doesnt do this.

Reset the ECU plenty of times.

 

What I reckon Ive eliminated:

Battery

Push start button

Coil

Starter motor (will crank fine not in ON position)

Plugs leads

 

 

It seems to be an intermittent voltage drain occasionally?

 

When it runs bad this comes out the rear, I'm assuming with the voltage drop means bad spark which means this shit.

 

20120831_2004501.jpg

 

Here is a video of it showing how it sounds/ what the voltmeter is reading. Excuse my drunk neighbour. :D

May not work right now its still uploading to youtube.

 

http://youtu.be/VDxt4_8Ni_4

 

Any ideas? Any pointers? I really don't wanna take it to a sparky, its not the money I really want to fix it myself (with help but I want to learn about this stuff).

 

Cheers peeps :y:

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Third start sounded like too much advance. That "crank-stop-sieze" sound...

 

I wouldn't expect the voltage drop from the starter to produce black soot via a voltage drop to the plugs. They only need to fire say once or twice for the motor to start and then the starter is turned off. Looks like normal black "cold start" soot to me.

 

hmm... Can the dizzy stick in an advanced position, so sometimes it is trying to start and run on 15 or 20deg advance? The fact that it cranks fine without ignition, so it overcomes the compression OK, yet it comes to that "wanna run backwards" dead stop when the plugs are hooked up.. The starter motor working against a plug firing down will also make it work very hard and cause a solid voltage drop. Won't do the starter any good either.

 

Put a timing light on it and see where it is firng when it is cranking badly, and see if it is always at the same advance. Then knock the advance back and see how it goes.

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Depressing how rattly a motor always sounds on a video clip, especially filmed under the bonnet. Things you never hear when driving come up clearly.

 

Anyway, how have you been setting the timing in the past w/o a timing light?? Any idea what the specs are and any idea what it is running at the moment? Ah- and also, what fuel are you using??

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  • 5 weeks later...

OK so I finally unwrapped the timing light and checked my timing.

First of all the dizzy was maxed out in the clockwise direction.

 

20121001_1032331.jpg

 

Checked the timing and it was at 10 with test terminals bridged, 16 w/o.

Ok I think, so timing is fine, decide to double check.

 

First of all the engine seems to have an AW11 pulley, so I'm lining everything up to the timing spike on the cam belt tensioner as per the manual. Both cams, crank and dizzy are lined up to the correct points. Cams to backing plate marks, and I can see the dot on the cam under the oil cap. Crank shaft dot lines up to the mark and the rotor is pointing to cylinder 1.

 

20121001_1024461.jpg

 

This time the timing marks are out by HEAPS. And I mean heaps.

Red timing spike and orange about where the marks end up. If I adjust the dizzy anto clockwise it puts the timing marks even further away from the timing spike

 

4age timing.jpg

 

I also relined the engine up to TDC, and painted a small dot on the pulley on the zero mark on the cam cover. Same issue.

Any pointers?

 

EDIT: I also ran a diagnostic and its saying everything is fine which it shouldnt as I have no O2 sensor

Edited by B.L.Z.BUB
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Arrgh! I don't know enough about the ignition system you have there.. A mechanical dizzy, vac advance, elctronic ignition?? How does the CPU control firing?

 

OK, what are the test terminals you bridged and what does that do?

 

Does the timing light clip around a plug lead for signal and battery to power the light.

 

What revs were the timng readings of 10 and 16 taken at?? I assume idle. So is it starting at 16deg, which seems a bit high to me. Are those red and orange arrows taken at idle?? That orange arrow must be about 36deg, the max advance of the system.

 

Can you get it idling at 8deg and see how it is for a week. If it knocks your performance off then change the advance curve.

 

Does the dizzy advance it as you turn it anti-clockwise, or retard it?? Can you pop it out, move the rotor and put it back one tooth more clockwise, so you are playing around the middle of the adjustment. If clockwise is retarding it, you can't get any less timing.

 

More important, seeing this is an occasional problem, are there weights in the dizzy that control the mechanical advance, or is all that electronic. If you have weights then you should strip the dizzy and make sure they are greased and free, and the springs are not broken. A weight sticking out will give you lots of advance all the time, then at other times it will return.

 

I think you need to solve the timing at idle/starting problem, then afterwards generate an advance curve of timing at every 500rpm and see what it looks like. That is just the performance part of the ignition, not the problem.

Edited by altezzaclub
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Arrgh! I don't know enough about the ignition system you have there.. A mechanical dizzy, vac advance, elctronic ignition?? How does the CPU control firing?

Electronic dizzy with electronic ignition.

 

OK, what are the test terminals you bridged and what does that do?

I bridged the terminals used for running a diagnostic as per the manual.

 

Does the timing light clip around a plug lead for signal and battery to power the light.

Yes.

 

What revs were the timng readings of 10 and 16 taken at?? I assume idle. So is it starting at 16deg, which seems a bit high to me. Are those red and orange arrows taken at idle?? That orange arrow must be about 36deg, the max advance of the system.

All done at idle

 

Can you get it idling at 8deg and see how it is for a week. If it knocks your performance off then change the advance curve.

 

Its off the road with no struts, I can't seem to get it to any consistent timing degree.

 

Does the dizzy advance it as you turn it anti-clockwise, or retard it?? Can you pop it out, move the rotor and put it back one tooth more clockwise, so you are playing around the middle of the adjustment. If clockwise is retarding it, you can't get any less timing.

It retards it turning it anti clockwise.

 

More important, seeing this is an occasional problem, are there weights in the dizzy that control the mechanical advance, or is all that electronic. If you have weights then you should strip the dizzy and make sure they are greased and free, and the springs are not broken. A weight sticking out will give you lots of advance all the time, then at other times it will return.

All the internals look electronic.

 

I think you need to solve the timing at idle/starting problem, then afterwards generate an advance curve of timing at every 500rpm and see what it looks like. That is just the performance part of the ignition, not the problem.

 

This is what I am trying to solve, its weird as it seems to be fine, then not, then fine.

 

Its a bigport from an AE82, sorry if my info is hard to understand as I'm trying to get my head around it all.

Edited by B.L.Z.BUB
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Wouldnt even start after that. Tried going one tooth the other way and it'll start but the timing all seems wrong. With all the timing marks lined up (cam, crank etc) is there an easy way to make sure the dizzy is on the right tooth?

 

Hang on the manual is telling me how, ill check it.

Edited by B.L.Z.BUB
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