Political Fluff

[7shades]

I was going to post a lengthy reply, but... You're right. Its boring and I cbf. I'll let Willis do his own research. (as I have)

 

Nutshell:

 

Money aside, it won't achieve anything. It will be counterproductive.

[LittleRedSpirit]

What really upset me about John Howard was that he linked us ever closer to America and its shady banking practices, participating happily in the boom and the bust. He set up market conditions to allow the ridiculous inflation of property prices. Why? It made all the people of his age rich within 5 years if they had a house. He has become a hero amongst people who had a house before he came along, and an absolute criminal to those who didn't. He should also be held accountable for his terrible and illegal military operations.

 

And the motherʞ©$ɟer can't even play cricket. What was that famous sledge? "can't bat, can't bowl".

[LittleRedSpirit]

Someone start a thread called 'boring political topics'

 

Its only boring if you truly do not care what happens to your world around you. The things we are discussing have very real implications in my world, and yours, you just choose not to acknowledge them, which is the attitude that has led to us being under the control of some very inappropriate systems. Carry on uninterested and uninformed as you are if that suits you, but don't denigrate the topic or the fact that we care what happens to us and our country.

[LittleRedSpirit]

My parents owned their house before JH came to power and we're not swimming in it.

 

Sell your house and be cash rich.

 

If you have the house, you can sell it and buy another one. Sure, your new house will cost the same as your old one, but the key point is it will be affordable to buy a new house for your family by selling the old one.

 

Remember they probably paid maximum 40% of the houses current value when they bought it. If they have had it for over 20 years already then they are definitely due for some good capital gains upon selling it.

 

So when they come to sell it, if I were to buy it, I have to raise a deposit equal to what your parents probably paid for the house in the first place 20 years ago to make paying it off affordable. The more the house costs, the more you have to borrow, and the more interest you pay in the end, the more deposit you need.

 

Not to mention increases in council rates, stamp duty, petrol, food, rego, education, fines, and all the other crap that fleeces your money each day.

 

I guess I was just personally offended when my parents generation decided that a quick buck was a preferable option to their kids having a secure future.

[altezzaclub]

Lol- Been busy the last week or so & missed this one!

 

Right! The problem with the system is one of incentives. The private sector has great incentives to succeed in competition, because that's how your business makes money and that's how you keep your job. Sadly, Govt does not have those incentives, it is a monopoly by force so there is nowhere else to go for things a Govt does, which is to tell you how to live the way they want you to. Hence we do everything we can to please our customers, and they don't give a shit.

 

The only incentives involved turn up at election time when politicians want to get their hands on the power, so their incentive is to convince you to vote for them, using any means at all, but usually bribery. (I also find it strange that you can call Aussie a democracy and beacon of freedom when they FORCE you to vote.. but anyway..)

 

What this means is that entirely the wrong sort of people run for power, from Councils to Canberra, the power attracts those people who want to rule over thier fellow man.

 

The solution is to run your Govt like you run your Justice system juries. You pull taxpayer's tax numbers out of the lotto machine and those people have to go to parliament for a year, or two or whatever, no dodging. You get a chance to introduce one law and vote on everyone else's in that time, then you never have to go back again.

 

You will get typical Aussies in power, and your country will reflect the values of your typical mates. Seeing no-one knows who is going to get in there will be no parties and no point in trying to influence those Parliamentarians. There will be a mix of all political sorts in there, but mainly we would see less desire to control everyone's life and more common-sense.

 

Otherwise, you will be forever at the mercy of power-mongers and capricious bureaucrats passing more and more laws every year and stealing more and more of your money. (which they make more worthless every day with their inflation!)

Edited September 30, 2012 by altezzaclub

[7shades]

[Willis]

I was going to post a lengthy reply, but... You're right. Its boring and I cbf. I'll let Willis do his own research. (as I have)

 

Nutshell:

 

Money aside, it won't achieve anything. It will be counterproductive.

 

I'm just asking questions man. I know nothing about this shit.

I understand that when it comes to certain occupations, a drug test can be a good thing ie. childcare etc but generally wouldn't all drug testing in the workforce be kinda counter productive? It's not exactly achieving anything...I know ALOT of people that go to work ʞ©$ɟed up on a bunch of different things. Alcohol is a big one, herb is another big one but there are others that use some harder stuff. They might lose their jobs due to unsafe conduct or whatever but then they'll end up on welfare or selling drugs anyway.

Saying that, I can understand why people want to see welfare drug testing happen. It seems kind of unfair when people in the workforce have to go through it.

[altezzaclub]

Well, its part of controlling the population, and that's only worth doing if they have something to steal. The Govt is not going to put the unemployed through Court as they can't get a fine out of them & it costs money to keep them in jail. Better to stick to screwing the middle-class.

 

Really, your performance on your job for your boss should be the only measure thta is important. Whether your out of it or not doesn't matter if you are performing fine. The whole drug war is a giant waste of our lives, after all, we are working to pay taxes for them to run a giant bureacracy employing thousands of people who should be out there in the private sector creating wealth.

 

Cops, lawyers, judges, prison guards, counsellors, drug test lab people, researchers, journalists, politicians, their staff.. Tens of thousands of people make their money from drug laws so there are too many votes in it to stop. It is a social change we need to make people think about taking drugs. You lose your job, ruin your health (Get Govt out of healthcare too- it makes people take too many risks!) end up in the gutter with people stepping over you.. Those peple steppingover you won't take drugs.

 

That is the message we should be realising, not having the Govt pick up after us and fix us up.

[Tume]

*cough*

 

Must interject here.

 

Few points on the refugee 'thing'. For the sake of convenience, I'll call these points, 'facts'.

 

1. They only cost so much because we keep insisting on offshore processing. 40k per head offshore, 4k onshore.

2. Genuine refugees/asylum seekers want nothing more than, and DO integrate into our society.

Most find legitimate, gainful employment within months after being granted asylum, and 'pay back' the investment we as taxpayers have spent on them within a few years. The majority are completely unskilled, so are guided into training and apprenticeships, eventually learning a trade. The 'skills shortage' you keep hearing about? These people are obtaining those skills, and utilising them.

3. When I hear someone say "Spend the money on Australians instead!!!" I have to remind them that currency is a cyclical thing.

Its not like it disappears completely when spent, It just moves.

Out of the reserve bank, spent in Australia, buying Australian products and services from all the Australians involved with refugees.

None of it goes offshore.

 

Still wanna 'stop the boats'? Ok, fair enough. Can't just open the floodgates completely.

We need to stop spending ʞ©$ɟtons of money dragging them out of the water and flying them to various island prisons.

Its pointless. If they make it onto a boat, its too late. Welcome to Australia, eventually.

Instead, spend that money sending a massive task force to Indonesia to stop the smugglers putting them ON the boats in the first place.

 

 

 

 

Second rant. Welfare drug testing.

 

Stupidest... Idea... EVER.

 

Proof: http://www.inquisitr...ts-state-46000/

 

Shady, I agree with this in my original post I said its fine when they are being integrated and a part of the workforce, its when people are going to try and get past the system that I believe is unfair. This isn't just for people coming in from other countries, but welfare members in Australia too.

The other part that seems to rile up people is the 'give everyone a fair go' where as you mention they are flying them around the nation and doing things they won't for citizens of Australia, first example coming to my mind is the government refusing to do anything about the anniversary of Long Tan, while flying the refugees from sydney, queensland, christmas island etc. Giving them tours and spending money on other such things to try and please. Oh, and the daily shopping allowance.

 

As for the proof on the drug testing, the final paragraph in the news article you posted reads as follows:

'In the meantime supporters of the law point out that the program may have deterred many drug users from taking the welfare drug test in the first place under the realization that they would have ultimately failed the test, thus pushing the 2.6% failure rate even higher and possibly making the program a financial success.'

[LittleRedSpirit]

Nobody has a gun to your head making you work in an environment that has drug testing if that doesn't suit your lifestyle.

 

Welfare drug testing is a means of marginalising young Australians as criminals, making it ok to control their lives, and micro manage their very existence. The best way to keep all your rights is to reject such a proposal.

 

We need a greater focus on domestic affairs.

 

Less law enforcement and regulation and stricter penalties when you do wrong/ʞ©$ɟ up. Crime should be considered as causing problems for others and not for yourself.

 

There are a lot of different things you can do to put the focus back on the individual to better themselves and come up to the level of society, rather than creating a system that shelters dummies from the consequences of being stupid.

 

The concept of constant financial growth is flawed compared to the natural logic of sustainability. Something has to give. Its a lot bigger and harder than a carbon economy. That just sounds like a great plan that an economist can put on paper without ever having to acknowledge the environmentalists and their arguments for trimming back our expectations of constant industrial and population growth.

 

One of my other main gripes with John Howard is the baby bonus. Lets start up a puppy farm of neglected welfare children to stock our military, pay more taxes hopefully and lead to economic power eventually, at the expense of the quality of life of individuals and the longer term sustainability of the nation. Right on moron. Fits with your "inflate the bubble and run" style of doing business.

 

While I like the idea of a parliament duty system as above, I think you risk getting a bunch of Pauline Hansons in there that would ʞ©$ɟ us over worse than any party would. I think we need to change the system, but I also think the Australian government system is well balanced compared to the US, which I feel is too heavily linked to and manipulated by money. Still we are far from perfect. If you could abolish the party line and have a "conscience vote" on all issues wed be fine I think. Be nice if they debated things in parliament as well, instead of paying each other out and thanking one another for their questions to waste time anyhow.

[altezzaclub]

Can't argue with those observations!

 

These days we should be able to have the population voting on all laws, we have internet and phone banking that works country-wide. Even a couple of million people voting would be better than those we have at the moment! Run a TV channel on what is coming up, talkback radio, websites/blogs/twitter/and stuff for debate and arguments, then vote over a 24hr period. That way we don't need anyone in Parliament!

 

So, who's watching "Yes Minister" these days... "Good grief, you mustn't tell Ministers everything, they might start to think for themselves.."

 

As for poor Alan Jones, everyone is shooting the messenger and ignoring the message!

[Willis]

Nobody has a gun to anybody's head. Maybe that's the problem? I don't agree with the drug testing but obviously alot of people are either wasting it on or defrauding to waste it on nothing but drugs. Instead of welfare, how about you just go and hand a crackhead $250 a week and keep him on the gas? It'll be like World Vision.

 

Like I said, I don't particularly agree with it but I wouldn't be opposed to it. I mean seriously, who's it going to hurt? You? Me?

[LittleRedSpirit]

There was a series of egalitarian comments Alan Jones made in the media a few weeks ago where he sided with the politicians point of view and my reaction was to say, "theres a man who sees him self as PM some day."

 

I can only assume the labour party has felt the same way about him and has attempted to nip his political career in the bud before it even starts.

 

Alan Jones, consider yourself marginalised as a crazy person. The fact that they dug up this comment from an off the media radar function and promoted it... to put it into perspective the QLD education minister made a really inappropriate sexual comment about how he "wanted the speech pathology girls to examine his anatomy" when he was at uni because they were all so hot. There was no media so he never got hammered for it. Sucks. He even leaned over to his minder and said, "was that inappropriate?" sarcastically. This was to a room full of mostly female health workers. They were all disgusted.

Edited October 1, 2012 by LittleRedSpirit

[orangeLJ]

There's way too many points that slapped me in the forehead of personal bias presented as objective fact, so I CBF going through and picking them all out to respond, but two points that struck me-

 

My missus and I are both 24 (well, 6 months between us)

 

I've owned my house for 4 years now (bought at 20, missus was 19) and have gained $60k in those 4 years on my investment through the property values in my neighbourhood rising.

 

I own 4 registered cars, a track car and a couple other ongoing projects.

 

My parents bought their first house around 9 years ago and will be paying it off, more than likely, well past their retirement age ( obviously if they sell up that’s different)

 

 

Anyone car buy a house. The whole "our generation can’t afford it" thing is bullshit. You may not be able to afford a 500k 4 bedroom, 3 bathroom newly built mansion, but you can definitely afford to buy a 2 bedroom, one bathroom house in an OK area for $250k and work your way from there.

 

Everyone expects to be able to jump into their dream home straight off the bat. THAT is the problem. Your parents didn’t buy a mansion for their first house, they would have started out small and WORKED their way into something bigger.

 

I'm sick and tired of hearing excuse after excuse from people <35 who whinge about "how good older generations had it"

 

Sure there were some things that were better (free uni etc) but they did the best with what was available, just like we should. Shit isn't just going to fall into your lap, make a decision, live the hard life for a few years to benefit yourself in later years.

 

 

 

 

As for the "boat people"

 

Tell me this,

 

Individual A is facing persecution in their home country (let’s call it Iran)

They decide to flee that country, paying tens of thousands of dollars to a people smuggler to get them out of the country, at this stage they are a legitimate Refugee, they are seeking to escape their home country for fear of persecution or displacement via war famine etc.

 

They somehow (whether by plane or boat) manage to escape their country moving through multiple other countries on their way to Indonesia etc.

 

Once they step foot into a country where they are free from the persecutors (ANY of those along the way) they lose that refugee status.

 

They are no longer a legitimate refugee.

 

A refugee seeks asylum in the first place they can. When they make the decision to leave their new found safety and decide that it is up to them to Choose their destination for asylum, they become an illegal immigrant.

 

I don’t find that so hard to understand, if they were genuinely just trying to get away from something they would stop when they could.

 

But our current system of handouts and bullshit means that our shores will make them more comfortable than stopping when they are simply "safe"

 

It’s human nature to seek out a better life, BUT that doesn’t mean we should have to cop it. We signed up to take in legitimate refugees, not those who decide Australia looks like a better place than where I am, let’s go there.... Join the queue, apply for the right to live here like all the other people looking to live here from Europe, Asia etc etc.

 

[ke70dave]

I tend to agree with the term "anyone can buy a house", IF they put their mind to it and/or seak finanical advice/guidence if they need it.

 

Easier said than done, as I'm yet to do it, but I'm working towards it and the goal is in site.

 

I am only just starting out in real life i guess, but i have discovered that if you don't waste your money on crap, you can save alot of money pretty fast....

 

And living on a minimalist budget and bringing down your lifestyle to meet your goals isnt that difficult if you are committed.

 

I think credit cards should be outlawed, and you shoudlnt be able to get a loan unless you can match the loan with savings perhaps. Its far tooo easy to get into heavy debt, and if an individual gets into heavy debt, then its not suprising that these people stay in debt for a long time.

 

Yes its an indivuals decisions to get into debt, but the temptations are too big.

 

However in saying all of that, i do belive in helping people that havent had a good start in life or who are genuinly struggling and trying to do the right thing. Who decideds who gets a good chance at life or not?

 

There are people out there that would have grown up with absoluatly no concept to living without centrelink payments to keep their family afloat, alot can't hold a job because they really have no idea how to, the only role model they have ever had in their lives was a father/mother who never held a job either, who probably had the same role models in their life. there are people that woudl have absoluately no idea how to create a simple budget to even keep track of the centre link payments they get.

 

The old saying, the apple does fall far from the tree..

 

don't belive me? go and find someone who works in something like Child protection or other sort of welfare groups/organisations. My fiance is a child protection officer with the government, the stories she tells of how kids are abused and neglected it is absoluately no wonder why they have a difficult time in life.

 

Now to tie this into what the government can do, preventative programs and not for proffit orgnaisations need heavy support to pick up these kids/young people at an early age and attempt to get their lives onto track (drug, alcohol, finanical adviced budgeting etc) . if we can sort out the kids/young adults at a young age, in 20yrs time there is a better chance they will be in a better position.

 

I don't want to sound like a preacher, but out church just opened up a very small organisaion down in logan somewhere i think, and amung other things they run a program that does free school homework sessions for kids of parents that probably could never do homework, or refugee kids that genuinely want to learn but struggle a bit with the language. From all accounts the extra ~30mins a day of free one on one tutoring makes a HUGE difference to these kids everyday lives at school. not jsut in their academics, but in their personal development as well.

 

And this is just one example, there are so many of these small organisations that are making a huge different to individuals, but i don't belive get the support they need to be used to their full potential.