4age

[Emerson]

Hey guys just wonderin which 4AGE you guys would recommend, the 16v or the black top 20v. A lso which model of the 4AGE came with vvt-i, if any. i am on my P's so i can't use the 4AG-ZE..... unfortunatly! Any help would be awesome. :lol:

[Hiro Protagonist]

Hey guys just wonderin which 4AGE you guys would recommend, the 16v or the black top 20v. A lso which model of the 4AGE came with vvt-i, if any. i am on my P's so i can't use the 4AG-ZE..... unfortunatly! Any help would be awesome. :lol:

 

Most people believe that the 20V engines are both overated in N/A form, as they cann't be modified anywhere near as much as a stock 16V. On the other hand, the silvertop is quite suited to forced induction, as it shares the bottom-end with the MAP 4AGZE (but is weaker than the earlier AFM GZEs). The blacktop is designed for high-revving N/A, and as such has relatively weak internals. Depending on what model car you want to put it in (if it's a late model AE10x for instance, the 16V is pretty much out of the question), a smallport 16V (100kw) is your best bet, and the most readily available too with strong aftermarket support

 

As for VVT-i, no A-series engine ever had it. VVT-i for Corollas was introduced on the ZZ-series engine, with the 1ZZFE having VVT-i and the 2ZZGE having VVTl-i (often called lift). The 20V 4AGEs had two different kinds of VVT, which are different again to VVT-i. They switched based on throttle position of other similar linear measures, and as such did not have the intelligence to be called VVT-i

[Julz01]

Most people believe that the 20V engines are both overated in N/A form, as they cann't be modified anywhere near as much as a stock 16V. On the other hand, the silvertop is quite suited to forced induction, as it shares the bottom-end with the MAP 4AGZE (but is weaker than the earlier AFM GZEs). The blacktop is designed for high-revving N/A, and as such has relatively weak internals. Depending on what model car you want to put it in (if it's a late model AE10x for instance, the 16V is pretty much out of the question), a smallport 16V (100kw) is your best bet, and the most readily available too with strong aftermarket support

 

I don't think that its not that it can't be modified mroe in its N/A form its that there are more aftermarket parts avaliable for 16v 4age and its alot cheaper to modify them rather then 20v ones which most parts will need to be custom to an extent.

 

Just depeneds on whether you need to convert them to RWD if you do , the 20v will need an aftermarket ECU or CAS or firewall loving to use the standard ecu + water lines will need to be looked at as well

[Des]

A 20v will be more expensive then a 16v.

 

Smallport gets my vote, But meh they all scream.

[Jono]

if you get a smallport, then u can put the GZE pistons in it later and whack a turbo on it.

[Hiro Protagonist]

I don't think that its not that it can't be modified mroe in its N/A form its that there are more aftermarket parts avaliable for 16v 4age and its alot cheaper to modify them rather then 20v ones which most parts will need to be custom to an extent.

 

Just depeneds on whether you need to convert them to RWD if you do , the 20v will need an aftermarket ECU or CAS or firewall loving to use the standard ecu + water lines will need to be looked at as well

 

Most aftermarket camshafts for the 20Vs do not incorporate VVT, so thats a major downside. Plus, there simply doesn't seem to be as much potential in them compared to 16Vs, put 5 grand into a fresh smallport or silvertop and the smallport will win just about every time.

[LittleRedSpirit]

This 'info' is such tripe. Opinions only. Read the rollaclub faq, and this page:

http://www.billzilla.org/4agstock.htm

 

This is a whole bunch of misconceptions, misleading assumptions and I'm sorry to say inexperience speaking. Nothing personal Hiro, but its crap.

 

Rebuttal:

 

Most people believe that the 20V engines are both overated in N/A form (so can you speak for everyone, I don't feel this way and I own one), as they cann't be modified anywhere near as much as a stock 16V (yes they can, of course they can, buy a 20valve if you don't have a massive budget for internals and want to outperform a 16v...). On the other hand, the silvertop is quite suited to forced induction (why? Its 10.5:1 compression ffs), as it shares the bottom-end with the MAP 4AGZE (no it doesnt) (but is weaker than the earlier AFM GZEs) (stress test results are where? You don't know this from experience do you?). The blacktop is designed for high-revving N/A, and as such has relatively weak internals (rpm is harder on rods than boost 99% of the time. Its bad tuning that makes boost eat rods). Depending on what model car you want to put it in (if it's a late model AE10x for instance, the 16V is pretty much out of the question) (because...?), a smallport 16V (100kw) is your best bet, and the most readily available too (id say Bigports are the most common by far in Australia) with strong aftermarket support (all 4ages have great aftermarket support, but 20valve stuff costs shitloads more).

 

As for VVT-i, no A-series engine ever had it. (oh my god this ones correct!!!) VVT-i for Corollas was introduced on the ZZ-series engine, with the 1ZZFE having VVT-i and the 2ZZGE having VVTl-i (often called lift). (by you and you alone it seems) The 20V 4AGEs had two different kinds (two different ways of triggering the same system really, throttle position or rpm) of VVT, which are different again to VVT-i. They switched based on throttle position of other similar linear measures, and as such did not have the intelligence to be called VVT-i

Edited November 29, 2007 by LittleRedSpirit

[LittleRedSpirit]

20v = Revs to 8000, makes more power, less torque, prick to install due to fwd conversion and distributor hits firewall, requiring aftermarket ecu.

 

16v Bigport = Easy install, rwd parts from factory, standard ecu is fine, , yank one out of an ae82 and get to work, by far the best bang for buck and locally delivered so parts are easy to get.

 

16v smallport = A little rarer, still pretty common, much like bigport, fairly easy to install, will require a cut and shut manifold will it not? Standard ecu is fine.

[LittleRedSpirit]

Most aftermarket camshafts for the 20Vs do not incorporate VVT, so thats a major downside. Plus, there simply doesn't seem to be as much potential in them compared to 16Vs, put 5 grand into a fresh smallport or silvertop and the smallport will win just about every time.

 

Most aftermarket cams use a longer duration than what is possible with vvt. Simple as that. Stock intake duration is 250 degrees in 20v, not too bad really. 240 in a bigport, and 232 in the smallports and gzes. Ignoring the fact that it has an extra valve per cylinder; lets just say you took an 86kw 4age and spent a bit of money on it. Got yourself some mild cams, a bit of extra lift, lightened internals, coated pistons, added itbs. What have you spent? 2 or three grand at least, and you have similar basic hardware to a 20 valve. Weigh that up against the added cost of a 20 valve install, with a cheaper motor possibly if you use a silvertop, which could be 750 dollars from most places. So your buying an ecu, which will be able to be adapted to almost any car you will build in the near future, money well spent. The motor itself. Get a loom made, maybe 500 dollars. Some engineering like the water kit, cas blockoff and extractors, another 600. Still havent built our hot 16v yet in real dollar for dollar terms. I whole heartedly disagree.

[Jono]

in NSW you couldn't put a 16v 4AGE in an AE101 because the motor is older than the car.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Most people believe that the 20V engines are both overated in N/A form (so can you speak for everyone, I don't feel this way and I own one), as they cann't be modified anywhere near as much as a stock 16V (yes they can, of course they can, buy a 20valve if you don't have a massive budget for internals and want to outperform a 16v...). On the other hand, the silvertop is quite suited to forced induction [](why? Its 10.5:1 compression ffs)[/b], as it shares the bottom-end with the MAP 4AGZE (no it doesnt) (but is weaker than the earlier AFM GZEs) (stress test results are where? You don't know this from experience do you?). The blacktop is designed for high-revving N/A, and as such has relatively weak internals (rpm is harder on rods than boost 99% of the time. Its bad tuning that makes boost eat rods). Depending on what model car you want to put it in (if it's a late model AE10x for instance, the 16V is pretty much out of the question) (because...?), a smallport 16V (100kw) is your best bet, and the most readily available too (id say Bigports are the most common by far in Australia) with strong aftermarket support (all 4ages have great aftermarket support, but 20valve stuff costs shitloads more).

 

As for VVT-i, no A-series engine ever had it. (oh my god this ones correct!!!) VVT-i for Corollas was introduced on the ZZ-series engine, with the 1ZZFE having VVT-i and the 2ZZGE having VVTl-i (often called lift). (by you and you alone it seems, I thought the 2zzge had vvtl-i, as in lift and variable valve timing) The 20V 4AGEs had two different kinds (two different ways of triggering the same system really, throttle position or rpm) of VVT, which are different again to VVT-i. They switched based on throttle position of other similar linear measures, and as such did not have the intelligence to be called VVT-i

 

 

OK, I'm a member of another large forum basically dedicated to the A-series engine and the various cars it came in (Twincam.org). A lot of the members on that site, who have owned various incarnations of the A-series, all the way from the pitiful little 2A and 3A all the way up to blacktops and GZEs, plus heavily modified ones including a 300+kwatw 7AGTE Levin. There is a significant proportion of that population that believe that the 20Vs are overrated, produce less power than was stated from factory (this has been shown numerous times on dyno runs side-by-side with smallports). Hell, one of my mates (also on Twincam) dyno'd higher than a blacktop at the last dyno day I went to, and he's only got a midly worked 7AFE. Tell me how intake, exhaust, mild headwork and an eManage can make up a 35kw deficit (7A stock has 86kw, blacktop has ~120kw). The silvertop 20V has an identical bottom-end to an AE101 MAP GZE (crank, rods), just with higher compression pistons. THIS is why it is better suited to forced induction than a blacktop bottom end.

As a general rule, all 4agze engines have the same internal engine componets as equivalent 4A-GE engine from the same age/car - except pistons..... AE101 gze has same crank and rods as silvertop 20V, but heads are different of course. AE92 smallport has same head, cams, crank, rods, block, etc etc.

 

The reason why (in NSW) you can't put a smallport in an AE101 is because NSW regulations state (in effect) that the engine you put in must meet or exceed the emissions performance of the original motor. This may or may not change under NCOP, I can't remember though.

 

As for the lift term, since both ZZ engines sold in Australia have variable valve timing with intelligence, the term lift is used as a general reference to the VVTL-i used on the 2ZZGE. This is a very common term used amongst the Sportivo and Celica crowd, of which I am also a part (through Toyota Owners Club Australia)

Edited November 29, 2007 by Hiro Protagonist

[LittleRedSpirit]

OK, I'm a member of another large forum basically dedicated to the A-series engine and the various cars it came in (Twincam.org). A lot of the members on that site, who have owned various incarnations of the A-series, all the way from the pitiful little 2A and 3A all the way up to blacktops and GZEs, plus heavily modified ones including a 300+kwatw 7AGTE Levin. There is a significant proportion of that population that believe that the 20Vs are overrated, produce less power than was stated from factory (this has been shown numerous times on dyno runs side-by-side with smallports). Hell, one of my mates (also on Twincam) dyno'd higher than a blacktop at the last dyno day I went to, and he's only got a midly worked 7AFE. Tell me how intake, exhaust, mild headwork and an eManage can make up a 35kw deficit (7A stock has 86kw, blacktop has ~120kw). The silvertop 20V has an identical bottom-end to an AE101 MAP GZE (crank, rods), just with higher compression pistons. THIS is why it is better suited to forced induction than a blacktop bottom end.

As a general rule, all 4agze engines have the same internal engine componets as equivalent 4A-GE engine from the same age/car - except pistons..... AE101 gze has same crank and rods as silvertop 20V, but heads are different of course. AE92 smallport has same head, cams, crank, rods, block, etc etc.

 

The reason why (in NSW) you can't put a smallport in an AE101 is because NSW regulations state (in effect) that the engine you put in must meet or exceed the emissions performance of the original motor. This may or may not change under NCOP, I can't remember though.

 

As for the lift term, since both ZZ engines sold in Australia have variable valve timing with intelligence, the term lift is used as a general reference to the VVTL-i used on the 2ZZGE. This is a very common term used amongst the Sportivo and Celica crowd, of which I am also a part (through Toyota Owners Club Australia)

 

 

 

Look mate, this is the post you should have written first time around. If you can't be bothered giving the reasons or explanations for what your trying to say, don't bother with anything. Read your first post then this one one after another. See how the second one contradicts the first? To someone who doesn't know this stuff the post you did first up was misleading and assumptive. I could tell what you were trying to say, you just never actually said any of it with enough detail o help anybody do anything.

 

I don't care what another forum or its members have to say. When we realise that its not information, I will relax. Don't ever post any info you've not witnessed for yourself. There are hundreds of myths that people who ignore science spread all around with all things. What you read on forums isn't gospel, its other peoples anecdotal experience, and could be poorly explained and misleading.

 

The authority with which you sprayed all that stuff in the first post could easily mislead someone with little or no knowledge of the topic. Its got to stop. Talk about your own experiences. I guarantee you mr tuff nuts with his full house 4a 16v is only repeating to you his mild undestanding of what the person who actually built his motor told him. Its chinese whispers sometimes with this garbage information that people 'share'. If you haven't been there and done it your just wasting everyones time and detracting from the features of this site and the integrity of our search function.

 

All that stuff about 20valves not performing. You do understand that people have home done installs with little or no knowledge of mechanicals and auto electrics, couple that with our lack of 110ron fuel like the japs have. You do realise dyno figures are one of the most misleading and wholeheartedly incorrect ways of comparing two mechanical systems? My dyno tuner refuses to graph torque since its always completely off on a dyno, for example. Nothing personal, Ill rip anyone who does this. Its clear that you know this info and could contribute wonderfully, so why don't you?

Edited November 29, 2007 by LittleRedSpirit

[ae174agze]

alright i'm no moderator or any thing but this is gonna turn into a shit fight

[Hiro Protagonist]

*Taken to PM

[LittleRedSpirit]

Well I am a moderator and I'm happy for anyone to contribute any way they can without getting personal or threatening. If it takes a spirited discussion for all the facts to come out then whats the problem? If we were even the slightest bit off topic then I would gladly accept critiscism.