Sign in to follow this  
altezzaclub

Why Do You Think We Need A Govt??

Recommended Posts

OK, The Boss said we could discuss this here, as he cringes everytime I give the Govt a big, well-deserved slap in someone else's thread. Not that it will stop me doing that, but here we can argue without ruining someone's build topic.

 

So, I'm an Anarcho-capitalist, an anarchist who believes in a free market. Maybe at a squeeze a Libertarian, they think there is a role for a Govt in protecting us from each other, but not from ourselves.

 

First up, anarchy is a state of NO RULERS, not NO RULES! Many people who hear the term write it off as some wild place with people doing as they want. No, if you want a quick introduction, read this comic- and read this graphic novel-

 

They both show a society where you will be castigated for doing harm to someone else, just as it was in our history before Govt found the power to take over from the Church in shaping our social lives, and they have ground us into the dirt ever since. So, if you feel you have plenty of freedom right now, the Govt does a good job and you're happy with life, then don't bother reading this, you will only understand when you are picked up by The State one night and your life is destroyed, be it for a real crime with a real victim for which maybe you are accused wrongly but convicted, or one of the millions of "rules" that do not even have a victim, but could cost you dearly.

 

Let me show you a current example- I want a shotgun, just a cheap behind-the-back-door sort that might save my life or my family's one time... That used to be the most common thing out until quite recently, and it should be the normal thing once again. But no, you're not allowed to use a firearm for self-defence, #1 against the Govt. They say they will look after our safety, but only ever turn up after the crime has been committed. Usually its a bit late in crimes of violence, you are dead or beaten up, but that doesn't worry them. In fact they don't want all crime to vanish, they would lose a major stick they beat you with every election time. Now, being unemployed and broke, I don't want a multi-thousand dollar two-cartridge long shotgun for shooting clays (as NSW bans shooting ducks...) I want a cheap short-barrel shottie that hold half a dozen cartridges n& will nail rabbits for the table. However not only did the Govt ban people defending themselves after Port Arthur, they also banned pump-actions and semis, both so common in quiet little NZ where I used to have them. Luckily, I am happy to buy a cheap Chinese copy of a Winchester 1887 lever-action that hold 5 cartridges, and they are available in Aussie for about $800. In NZ on holiday I find them for sale at only $520AU, so I buy one.

 

I bring it back over and hand it in at Customs like a good boy so The State can make sure it agrees with their rules. Actually, they find it doesn't! There is a test they have just taken to doing where you pull the hammer back and let it go and it must not set the gun off, and it will in these guns because our forefathers were so much smarter than us they didn't need complicated "safe" guns. So, point #2, Govts are capricous, you never know what they will do. This week I'm trying to get it flown back to NZ before Friday or they will chop it up, and they don't give a rat's arse about what it costs me, there is no compensation for destroying my property. But there are thousands already here I say... "We don't care.." This is how they ban guns without passing a law doing it. Now I'll have to buy the identical gun here and pay a lot more for it... Sound familiar... Oh yes! THE CAR INDUSTRY! Don't try and bring in an import, we will force you to buy our locally-made shit at higher prices...

 

Now try and find any facet of life or any industry where the Govt DOESN'T step in and screw it up! They RUN on the idea of pleasing some pressure group or other to be seen to being do something, ANYTHING, so long as they are passing laws. ...and of course they just add laws on top of laws, never deleting any. So no one man can know them all... they want everyone to be a criminal of one sort or another, then you will feel guilty and fear the Govt.

 

What should it be like?? Well, go to a farmer's market, like we have in Orange. People voluntarily sell their goods to people who voluntarily buy them. Both customer and seller are happy that they got what each wanted in exchange for something they valued less, be it a bag of spuds or a $5 note. Why can't that happen all through society? There is no reason except Govt WANT to get in there and interfere, and there is always some pressure group who sees an advantage for them if Govt do so. Did you know here is a manufacturers group RIGHT NOW lobbying for Govt to put up GST? How can they be so absolutely fking stupid as to encourage more tax!! Because NEXT time the Govt will be working against them for someone else, and they are too dumb to realise that!

 

So, Where do we need them? We don't need them at the UN, that's for sure, we don't need them interfering with overseas trade and talking about "trade agreements", we don't need them taking every dollar we earn until the end of May each year and wasting it. We don't need them "running" the economy as they have just collapsed the world's one and it will screw every one of you young guys who will have to pay some fat bast'd bankers for the next twenty years. We don't want them printing currency, it has been shown time and again that Govt's in charge of fiat currency (pieces of paper) just destroy the wealth that people have saved. Let every bank and every chain store have their own currency, let gold and silver be the backup, as it did for thousands of years!

 

The ONLY place you might find a use for them is in punishing those who harm you, for the only law you need is this one- "You must not commit force against another person" That leaves all the rest of the problems to be sorted out by Common Law, which is the vast store of decisions made over the last 500years about "Who's fruit is it when it falls over the fence" and "Who pays for the fence when the tree falls on it" All that has been thrashed out by our ancestors without needing a giant bureaucracy and a crazed Parliament. ..and as for roads... who knows! Back in 1988 people would argue- "What about telephones and communication?? Without Govt it will all fall apart and we will never be able to contact anyone" Well, the internet sure stopped that- the most unregulated, private setup the world has seen since the Gutenberg Press! Not for long I'm sure, Govts everywhere hate it!

 

So, how do you get a Govt like this? Well, not by electing one!! That has been shown to attract entirety the wrong sort of people, in fact WANTING to go to Parliament should instantly disqualify anyone! Those power-crazy people are the last ones we need in there, yet they are the ones ruling us. So we would be far better running it like jury service, randomly picking anyone unless insane or a criminal, and expecting them to give up 5years of their life in service to the country. There won't be much to do, no new laws to pass, no junkets to go on while Govts examine economic coalitions, and no army of bureaucrats to boss around...

 

Meanwhile, I'm over 60 so I've seen the world go downhill, and I can see that you youngsters CAN'T see it because you're too young! But take it from me, it was a lot less regulated and a lot more enjoyable when I was young! So unless you question the very basis of how society works, YOU ARE ROOTED! Just read "1984"... more and more is becoming true!

 

-Armed people are citizens, disarmed people are subjects-

Edited by altezzaclub
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members dont see this ad

OK, The Boss said we could discuss this here, as he cringes everytime I give the Govt a big, well-deserved slap in someone else's thread. Not that it will stop me doing that, but here we can argue without ruining someone's build topic.

 

I'd just like to explain my position on this a little bit here. I've long held that this is an automotive site and that topics such as politics and religion don't belong here (off topic aside) unless they specifically relate to the site (e.g. hoon laws, censorship etc). At the same time I'm a strong supporter of free speech and heavily anti-censorship. So that creates a bit of a contradiction for me, if I want to keep the site on topic then censorship in a way becomes necessary. What I mean by this is if people post something like "Vote XYZ!" or "Join my religion its great!" then it'll get shitcanned, regardless of their affiliation and whether I share that persons views or not.

 

That said, I don't think I've ever deleted one of your anarchism related posts (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't have any problems at all discussing it in an off-topic thread like this but I find it difficult to reply to throw away comments in others threads without first essentially killing the threads original discussion and looking like a total asshole for doing that. I'm glad you chose to make this thread though and I'm hoping there'll be plenty of discussion and people sharing their views.

 

 

-Armed people are citizens, disarmed people are subjects-

 

I grew up in the country and was still living there when the gun control laws came in. I remember my grandfathers anger at having to turn in his Winchester 1400 and Remington .303s (among others) and shared his sentiment. Now I'm older, while I play FPS games, love military tech and don't mind watching the occasional FPSRussia vid on youtube, I'm actually glad we don't have the "freedom to bear arms" in this country. Watching any cop show out of the US and they treat everyone as if they're armed and dangerous. Routine traffic stop? Cops got his gun ready to go and you'll probably be in handcuffs shortly even though you've committed no offense, purely for the perceived safety of the officers. Plenty of unarmed innocent people have been shot dead because the cop incorrectly though there was a danger to his own life. Here? "Hey mate how you going, blow on this. Thanks, see ya". I'm sure you'll point out that this wouldn't be the case in an anarchy. And yea, probably right but there'd be plenty of gunfights until the ammunition runs out (because the infrastructure to produce it is gone).

 

OK, so what if a country invades, we're defenseless as citizens! The thought has crossed my mind, though if we were invaded an insurgency is little more than a pain in the arse to the invading forces. The insurgency in Afghanistan haven't really achieved anything and the French resistance (while I'm not completely read up on them) appeared to have only achieved something substantial when the American war machine rolled on through. Compared to the Taliban though they were significantly stronger at 1mil+.

 

 

So, how do you get a Govt like this? Well, not by electing one!! That has been shown to attract entirety the wrong sort of people, in fact WANTING to go to Parliament should instantly disqualify anyone! Those power-crazy people are the last ones we need in there, yet they are the ones ruling us. So we would be far better running it like jury service, randomly picking anyone unless insane or a criminal, and expecting them to give up 5years of their life in service to the country. There won't be much to do, no new laws to pass, no junkets to go on while Govts examine economic coalitions, and no army of bureaucrats to boss around...

 

This I can agree on, in part at least. Far too many of the wrong people end up in politics for the wrong reasons. To me there's essentially two types of people who go into politics; Those who genuinely believe they can and seek to effect change for the better (and usually end up hobbled by the second group) and those who do it for personal and in my opinion the wrong reasons, whether to advance their own business interests or satisfy some mental itch with a power trip or something along those lines. But its no different to many other situations, from community groups to religions to the police to forum mods/admins. I'm not sure what the solution is, I'm not sure what would happen if it was a jury system like you've proposed. I suspect many people thrust into the position would remain too narrow minded within their own community that things would get done there while everywhere else suffers. My solution with forums is to not promote people who seek out mod positions. All of the active mods here have been approached out of the blue but I don't see how this could work for states. Who gets to select? Its fine here where I can consult the mod group and see what they think; it requires a power structure that preexists.

 

My original assertion that many of the things present in modern society couldn't exist was perhaps a bit of a cheap shot. There's no way of absolutely knowing this because we can only observe the world we have. Even so, its hard to imagine how something as basic as a sewage system could work when old mate over there doesn't like it going through his property so he just destroys the infrastructure. Then what, mob justice? The way I see it with anarchy you don't get to have your cake and eat it. I think eventually you'd end up back at a Bronze Age style existence as the stability for large infrastructure doesn't exist. Neighbors can't even agree on fencing issues, what makes you think something as complex as a power grid or road network would be even remotely possible?

 

But that's not even the biggest issue I see, that kind of existence might be perfectly fine and even desirable to some. For anarchy to be possible you would need sweeping and world wide adoption relatively quickly. Why? OK so Australia turns to anarchy tomorrow, there's no funding for a defense force and we're reduced to essentially an insurgency style defense only. China or even the US (after all, diplomatic ties have just been severed) says, oh hey nice undefended resources you've got there and invades with little to no resistance and your anarchy is over.

 

So why governments? First, please don't misrepresent my position as one of supporting the current state of government in this or any other country. I think its in a bit of a mess at the moment with some serious bullshit going around. But I don't believe society can exist without some form of government. I suspect that we're genetically programmed to form groups. Our survival depends on the group as we're incapable of sustaining ourselves on our own. The calorie output and time demand to build shelter and gather food and water exceeds what we're capable of obtaining on our own. So we form groups, where the tasks can be spread around and its easier to gather larger amounts of food. The more people there are working together, the easier it becomes and the more you can achieve. Governments in one form or another have existed for many thousands of years, Democracy has been around for about 2500 years and I suspect its just a natural progression of the group and its need to keep the group working together in relative harmony.

 

I'm also a little confused why people believe we are constantly worse off. In 1970s in Queensland you would have been arrested for protesting. I don't see it as so much a one way movement towards totalitarianism (or whatever the perception is), but a cycle somewhere between the many basic forms of government.

 

Anyway, there's my partially coherent ramblings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately we are all animals like it or not and like animals we will behave in a way that our genetics describe us. Just like a

vicious dog inherits it's traits from it's parents. Without proper training we grow wild and uncontrollable and so this is why we need a master to

control us and stop us from destroying ourselves. From birth we are taught what is right and what is wrong, to fear punishment and retribution.

This is what controls our actions and thoughts, without it we would just do what is best in our own interests and not the interests as a whole.

This is why we need a form of government, I admit that our government is not perfect but it does do it's job to protect us from ourselves.

 

Being an immigrant brought up by a reletavely poor family has taught me to value what I have, my parents are hard workers and it has rubbed off on me too.

I was smacked by a belt when I was naughty as a child and this taught me to fear punishment and do the right thing. I am now 23, I have a good paying job with

security, I have a mortgage, A wife and my first child is due to be born mid November. Where the hell am I going with this? Keep reading.

 

Other families are not so fortunate and this is where the vicious cycle begins. The parents have no job, live off of welfare, do drugs, for some [email protected]$ked up reason

they have a kid, neglect it, do not restrain it or teach it right and wrong. This child then goes off the rails and becomes what his parents are. He has a high chance

of committing a crime to support a habit because he does no have a job. This is the class of people that the government protects us from. The violent kind. The kind that

does not fear punishment or retribution because they do not know any better. It's great that in our country these people cannot freely grab a hold of a firearm.

I think that gun laws should be in place but not at the level that it is currently at. Gun crimes are not committed by registered owners but owners of illegal guns.

So why punish someone who want's to do the right thing? Beats me.

 

Governments are a great thing for human society and the illusion of democracy keeps us happy thinking that we have much of a say as to what goes down.

Governments are inherently corrupt and always will be. Believe it or not. They are not corrupt in a way like you see in the movies but more so of peoples

views of taking care of themselves and not other people. People with soo much wealth want to keep it and increase it, governments are a way of protecting

their interests. Notice how many politicians are former union bosses/members? How many councillors own developments, shopping centres and businesses?

Money rules this world, not laws, morals or ideals. Sure it makes me angry but that's just what it is and it will NEVER change. Want anarchy? Go to Afghanistan.

It's about as good as it gets with lawlessness. People make their own laws and if you do not obey you will be either dismembered or killed. not put on trial for murder, killed.

 

Admittedly Afghanistan was once a peaceful place and like Iran and Iraq were thriving cultural centres. I bet that if you looked at pictures of Afghanistan back in the 50s and 60s,

apart from the attire of the people you would think that it was a town in America. Go look it up. Then America had to smear it's shit where it did not belong and now it is a war torn

country controlled by the terrorists that they trained to fend off the Russian occupation, which was brought about by American intervention.

Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan . Russia was allied with the Afghanis and was there to protect the Democratic government that was in place.

Basically Russia was bringing Democracy and a modern way of life to Afghanistan, as well as financial aid and military support against the Mujahideen, who had a deep Islamic

view almost to the point of extremism. Ties to America were worsening, they didn't like the Russians, because they are Russian or someshit, so they financed and armed the Mujahideen. Eventually leading to the Government being overthrown and the extremists taking control. Great guys those Americans hey?

 

People like me just want to live in peace and stress free, which is why I am a sheep and wouldn't have it any other way. People who have an agenda and generally feel

as though society owes them something will always rally for anything, from my experience are also jobless and heavily on the green stuff. Basically lazy people

who want more than they have without lifting a finger to get it.

 

We came to Australia with nothing but the clothes we had and a few dollars saved. We were fortunate that we had cousins that took us in until we found a house

to live in and work to support ourselves. This poor beginnings is what makes me happy with where we are at today in society. There are places far worse off than us

and I am grateful that I am in a country that values it's people, takes care of their health, has a system to place people into work that do not have a job and supports

us until we do find a job. There are a few countries that would do that. You should feel great when you go to sleep without worry what the next day brings.

What are our fears here in Australia? I forgot to buy milk for my coffee in the morning? This is why I am happy with where I am at and am all too happy to sit where I am.

 

Government? What government? Oh you mean the one that we only notice when it causes us some inconvenience and then we forget all about them until the next tax? At least it is

a government that does not take us as prisoner for 10 years for writing posts such as this one.

 

In time the government will change, laws will change, society will change and everything will be forgotten. Do you want to spend your life being angry or happy with

the fact that you have a good life and that your children will have a good chance to have it better than what you did?

 

I choose to be happy.

 

 

Edit: I also Totally agree with you irokin.

While I agree with most of what you have said Altezza I do not agree with Anarchy, in an ideal world where people are not violent it would work wonders.

but with our current society we would tear ourselves apart leading to the near extinction of our race. We have grown soo detached from our environment that

eventually we would not be able to sustain such a population with no form of control. We would definitely go backwards as a race. People like you and me

could make it work but our neighbours would sooner kill us for the shirts off our backs.

Edited by Twinky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Watching any cop show out of the US and they treat everyone as if they're armed and dangerous.
Hold it! What about Finland and Switzerland.. Both heavily armed countries, but with quite a different outlooks to the USA, maybe because they don't have Hollywood. I haven't been to the States, but I have a sneaking feeling that people running around firing guns is no more typical than Sydney. Its generally crime-related in poor areas, and they have found in the last decade that allowing good people to carry concealed handguns does drop crime levels by the bad guys. Most country's citizens were able to be armed in the late 1800s earl;y 1900s, before Govt realised that armed citizens were dangerous to Govts!

 

And yea, probably right but there'd be plenty of gunfights until the ammunition runs out (because the infrastructure to produce it is gone).
Never! The free market always supplies what is needed, and if there is a demand for ammo people will be supplying it. The armaments industry started before Govts caught up with the emerging technology.

 

OK, so what if a country invades, we're defenseless as citizens!
No, we are as armed as Switzerland, where every citizen can defend his life and loved ones. There is nothing more difficult that trying to subdue a proud, free (armed) people, which is why no-one invades Switzerland.

 

The insurgency in Afghanistan haven't really achieved anything
Actually, they have held off the empires of the world. No-one seems to have invaded and ruled Afganistan in the last 150years. The Brits,the Russians and the American have all found their graveyards there. God knows why the USA is there, apart from the worlds greatest supply of drugs. They will just get soldiers killed year after year after year until they give up, and I'm sure they will!

 

what makes you think something as complex as a power grid or road network would be even remotely possible?
If what we have proved impossible,then we would substitute it with something else. Like mobile phones are replacing copper wires in emerging counties, the incentive to solve a problem leads to new ideas. However, because things like road and sewerage are a gain to everyone, it is hard to find someone who would stand against it overall. (Roads did happen before Govts of course!)

 

So we form groups, where the tasks can be spread around and its easier to gather larger amounts of food
Yes, and the word that hasn't appeared at all is VOLUNTARY. We form groups voluntarily, as seen in every town in the country. The difference is that a Govt immediately uses COMPULSION to force its ideas through. If their ideas WERE really acceptable to the population they wouldn't have to be compulsory!

 

The hallmark of a tyranny anywhere, the Govt forces you to do its bidding. Yet humans got where they are by working together voluntarily. What we have seen is a Govt that found the way to easily steal your wealth in the industrial age by PAYG, and then dribbled a little of it back to keep you happy. The vast steps forward made with the help of new technologies have not really enriched the people, it has concentrated wealth with those in power. They have used it to entrench their position, otherwise why wold Govts always have bigger and better armaments than the people they serve.

 

The system is working against us.

 

More later when I digest Twinky's post, this is hard work!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the whole free market, no government sounds great in theory, but it just wont work.

 

There will always be someone or some group of people who will rise to power, and power over the less powerful people.

 

Same as communism, fantastic idea on theory, no one owns anything, thus everyone is equal right? mmm doensnt appear to work like that hey.

 

we are all just too greedy people by human nature. And thus require some sort of leadership.

 

i refuse to belive that us humans are on the same level of animals, we know what is right and wrong, we have morality, we have a choice to do the right or the wrong thing. but unfortunately we are all tempted into doing the wrong thing from time to time, thus we need someone in control.

 

Unforatunately the government is also comprised of these same types of people, those with choice to do the right and wrong thing, and thus arent perfect, but i think as a collective they do a fairly decent job of attempting to control the masses.

 

This is the problem with humans ruling over humans, there will always be conflict, as citezens think they can do a better job of another citezen whos job description is "Prime Minister".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, and the word that hasn't appeared at all is VOLUNTARY. We form groups voluntarily, as seen in every town in the country. The difference is that a Govt immediately uses COMPULSION to force its ideas through. If their ideas WERE really acceptable to the population they wouldn't have to be compulsory!

 

But its not voluntary. It might appear that way in the current society but you work with the group or you become a social outcast and you die or at least find life very difficult.

 

 

No, we are as armed as Switzerland, where every citizen can defend his life and loved ones. There is nothing more difficult that trying to subdue a proud, free (armed) people, which is why no-one invades Switzerland.

 

Switzerland has some pretty awesome natural defense in its topography. They have the luxury of being able to fall back into the Alps and mount a defense from there. They also had and have an army and an air force and a strong milita (generated largely through conscription currently) which was and is armed by... the government. Why weren't they invaded in world war II? Well Hitler never gave the order, so we don't know. They had the full intention to do so however but perhaps it was easier to leave them until the pesky British were out of the picture as that provided the only real invasion platform and was a clear threat.

 

Hold it! What about Finland and Switzerland.. Both heavily armed countries, but with quite a different outlooks to the USA, maybe because they don't have Hollywood. I haven't been to the States, but I have a sneaking feeling that people running around firing guns is no more typical than Sydney. Its generally crime-related in poor areas, and they have found in the last decade that allowing good people to carry concealed handguns does drop crime levels by the bad guys. Most country's citizens were able to be armed in the late 1800s earl;y 1900s, before Govt realised that armed citizens were dangerous to Govts!

 

Finland requires permission from the police and you need a valid reason to own a firearm. You're also not permitted to carry the gun in public.

 

Switzerland requires males who have gone through their armed services requirement (and thus been trained in firearms) and are in the reserve to keep their service firearms at home (though they are rendered semi automatic only). If you wish to carry the firearm in public you require a permit which requires you justify the need. There's also yearly mandatory firearms training.

 

Both markedly different to the US situation.

 

Actually, they have held off the empires of the world. No-one seems to have invaded and ruled Afganistan in the last 150years. The Brits,the Russians and the American have all found their graveyards there. God knows why the USA is there, apart from the worlds greatest supply of drugs. They will just get soldiers killed year after year after year until they give up, and I'm sure they will!

 

I'm assuming you're pointing to the Mujahideen who were well equipped (either directly or financially) by the American government and repelled the soviets. They lost somewhere in the order of 500,000+ combatants to the Soviets ~14,000, pretty costly. Likewise the Taliban currently have lost somewhere in the order of 40,000 combatants to ~2000 coalition combatants. They may not look like they're succeeding though only because the coalitions strategy of courageous restraint; positively identifying targets before engagement in order to minimise civilian casualties for various reasons. Make no mistake, if the US just wanted to occupy Afghanistan at any cost they would have done it by now but their intention is to have a workable country come out the other end. As for giving up, well they're already starting a troop draw down and a transition of power to the Afghan army. It'll probably lead to a period of anarchy again like it did after the soviets withdrew in the 90s. A $10 trillion national debt due in part to an economy with little restrain exercised over it tends to have that effect.

 

But I suspect the natural progression of society will see them back to having some form of government in the not too distant future. Remember that government does not just describe a democratic one. All it takes is for one person to begin forming a group. The effective groups have some form of leadership structure. That prompts others to form groups to protect themselves from the other groups. Suddenly you have the progenitor for governments and the process will continue to snowball until some steady state is reached.

 

 

I think you're giving humans far too much credit and being way too idealistic. People aren't going to have the resources available to maintain a phone system or ammunition factory with only ad-hoc rule. You require someone to maintain the electricity system, someone to operate a power plant, someone to dig a coal mine to fuel the power plant, someone to provide tools to the miner and someone to provide a structured education to all these people so they're capable of working together. The chain flows on and on and I struggle to see why a disorganised society would be capable of working together sufficiently to achieve JUST the power side of production without even touching gathering metals, transport and even how payment might be made. And that's making the assumption that this infrastructure preexists and you don't need to construct it all as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a little book around called "The Pencil", which goes into how many people do what they do to make a buck, without any of them except the end-producer wanting to make a pencil. Some guys cut down trees, some transport them, some mill them up, some sell timber and so on.. no-one sat down (except in Communist countries) and said "We need pencils, go and plant trees"

 

Make no mistake, all the components of a technology come together in the marketplace, and have done since trading began. A Govt's role is only ever to disrupt this and make it less efficient and more expensive. You make think the high tariffs on imported cars is helping Australia, but actually it is only helping a small power group within the auto industry, and it costs everyone else dearly. With no Govt interference the people work in the most efficient industries.

 

I emailed a mate in Auckland for a price on a fuel filter for the Altezza- $59AU. Then I phoned the local Toyota agent... $93.40, used in the IS200 & Camry I think. Now, which country has the protected industry?

 

I don't think I'm too idealistic, the good people outnumber the bad people by a long way. Charities and voluntary actions are common everywhere, even after the Govt steals half your money and tries to run the real charities out of town We are suffering 50years of welfare that only promotes bad people's behaviour, and that has been shown to reverse quite quickly when welfare is withdrawn. The concepts of working for a living, looking after yourself and having consequences you must bear for your actions are only just under the veneer of the welfare state.

 

The real question I suppose is, what will happen if we DON'T rein in Govts? How much of your income are you willing to pay? Tax rates were 90% in the past, they might hit there again. How much intrusion will you let happen, surveillence in your home 24/7, like countrys are now allowing? Is there a level of Nanny State you will get upset at?? Ban smoking, ban gambling, ban drugs, ban fat foods?? Enforce exercise?? Zero alcohol when driving? Speed limits absolute with no leeway? They have all been slowly crushing down in my lifetime.. Adolf Hitler would be proud!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oops, there goes Godwin's law

 

lol! I'd never heard of it, but Wiki saved me- It came up because Hitler was very keen on eating less meat, eating lots of veges in a healthy diet, having the volk do exercises and practice clean living in the way approved of by the State. He was anti-smoking and against getting drunk.. All the things our Govts now try to nanny us about!

 

Being a Fascist he believed in private ownership of business, but the State told you what you could do with it and how you could do it. He felt a subject's first duty was to the State and you were expected to sacrifice yourself for the greater good.

 

Sounds familiar to me!

 

Now this-

unfortunately we are all tempted into doing the wrong thing from time to time, thus we need someone in control
is meant to be SELF-discipline! You are an adult when you do the things you should because you know they're right, not because someone told you to do them. If they turn out to cause you grief, you take the consequences... not common these days, the usual response is to blame everyone else and then expect the govt to fix it!!

 

That runs into Twinky's comment here

Just like a vicious dog inherits it's traits from it's parents. Without proper training we grow wild and uncontrollable and so this is why we need a master to control us and stop us from destroying ourselves.
We don't need a master to control us, we just need to realise the actions we take will have consequences. We don't need a Govt to enforce that either, for as mentioned above, if you pissoff all your neighbours you will live a very lonely life. The local shopkeeper could refuse to serve you, the gas station, all your peers in fact! In an anarchy you have to be nice to people, or you won't survive! In contrast, some fkwits in NZ pushed a Jewish bookbinder through Court because he refused to repair a book denying the holocaust. So he didn't have the freedom to choose to serve someone or not! Talk about State-sponsored slavery!

 

What should really happen here?

The parents have no job, live off of welfare, do drugs, for some [email protected]$ked up reason they have a kid, neglect it, do not restrain it or teach it right and wrong.
Well, having no job should cause you to starve! Without the Govt making slaves of everyone else, you will have to beg rather than get "welfare", or find a job. When I ran a garage in Cape Town I would get people coming in and saying "Got a job for me Boss?" Try and find that anywhere in a welfare state! I have cornered guys in the labour dept offices trying to get them to accept jobs in NZ, and you can't get them to work!

 

So, no welfare, no minimum wage, work for a $1 a day if you are at the bottom. You can bet your rise up the ranks will be much faster than now! Do drugs?? Sure anything you like, your body is your own! Screw it up and you will suffer the consequences, no-one will HAVE to pay to fix you. Suddenly the consequences are right there in front of you... Bring up your kids badly?? Well, who is going to look after you when you're old?? There is no Govt screwing money out of the younger generation to pay the pensions of the older one.

 

And speaking of that... you do realise that there is not a chance in hell you youngsters can pay for my generation to retire on the current tax rates don't you? Unfortunately we will out-vote you to guarantee our incomes, even though the Govt has spent every dollar we paid in tax thinking it was for our pensions! Its the biggest ponzi scheme in the world. On top of that the reserve banks have ruined the world economies and will inflate the currencies to pay the debt, so all those private pension schemes will turn out to be worth peanuts.. Its going to be a rough ride!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol! I'd never heard of it, but Wiki saved me- It came up because Hitler was very keen on eating less meat, eating lots of veges in a healthy diet, having the volk do exercises and practice clean living in the way approved of by the State. He was anti-smoking and against getting drunk.. All the things our Govts now try to nanny us about!

 

Being a Fascist he believed in private ownership of business, but the State told you what you could do with it and how you could do it. He felt a subject's first duty was to the State and you were expected to sacrifice yourself for the greater good.

 

Sounds familiar to me!

 

Unfortunately that doesn't make it any less of a logical fallacy (there's a few there I think).

 

I'm anti smoking and anti drinking (to excess) but that doesn't make me instantly analogous to Hitler. While I'm not prepared to be an enabler I'm not going to stop peoples free will either. For example I won't hand my work colleagues their packet of smokes but rather move aside and let them grab it themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm anti smoking and anti drinking (to excess) but that doesn't make me instantly analogous to Hitler. While I'm not prepared to be an enabler I'm not going to stop peoples free will either.

 

That is the crux of the whole matter! You don't approve of what other people do, but you won't stop them. Now why can't Govts behave the same? Why do the people in power have have quite the opposite mindset?? "I don't think what you're doing is good for you so I'm going to stop you!"

 

Do voters feel that they are so inferior to the politicians that they have to be told what to do?? Is it obvious that politicians are somehow far more intelligent than us, far more moral and better-behaved, and have far more wisdom than we?? Personally I've never found one that I would waste a pee on, and I've been in politics and run for Council. They are generally slimy, ingratiating and out for themselves with a mean power streak that reminds me of the worst of school teachers. They HATE it when people won't do what they're told.

 

So why don't we start with removing all laws that don't require a victim to stand up in Court and say "The accused wronged me by committing force upon me". No victim, no crime... and select politicians randomly rather than let them steal our money to bribe us with to vote them in to steal more money...

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is the crux of the whole matter! You don't approve of what other people do, but you won't stop them. Now why can't Govts behave the same? Why do the people in power have have quite the opposite mindset?? "I don't think what you're doing is good for you so I'm going to stop you!"

 

Because the free market economy doesn't work. Wouldn't it make sense to produce a product that makes everyone addicted and guarantees a continuing market and to hell with the consequences for the consumers? You don't have to pickup the pieces after all. The cost to society as a whole is phenomenal. I probably wouldn't support banning it completely but I wouldn't be opposed to taxing them out of existence. Sure you CAN smoke, but you're sure as hell not going to leave everyone else to foot the bill.

 

I suspect you wont see prohibition in this country and it certainly isn't the road to fascism. The US had it for 14 years under the 18th amendment and everyone is well aware that its a shit idea and causes more problems than it solves. It also didn't serve as a progenitor for totalitarianism in the US.

 

Do voters feel that they are so inferior to the politicians that they have to be told what to do?? Is it obvious that politicians are somehow far more intelligent than us, far more moral and better-behaved, and have far more wisdom than we?? Personally I've never found one that I would waste a pee on, and I've been in politics and run for Council. They are generally slimy, ingratiating and out for themselves with a mean power streak that reminds me of the worst of school teachers. They HATE it when people won't do what they're told.

 

Look up Paul Pisale. He's a prime example of someone who's in politics for the right reasons. Unfortunately health problems (and his loyalty to his city) will probably prevent him ever striving for a higher office but what he's done for Ipswich has so far been incredible. I'm sure there are plenty of others.

 

So why don't we start with removing all laws that don't require a victim to stand up in Court and say "The accused wronged me by committing force upon me". No victim, no crime... and select politicians randomly rather than let them steal our money to bribe us with to vote them in to steal more money...

 

Have you got some specific examples you'd like me to respond to? I'll point out again though that I don't necessarily agree with everything our or any other government does just because I'm a statist. But at the same time that doesn't mean that anarchy is the only alternative or that governments then become unnecessary. Personally I'd love to see how a society operating as a democratic technocracy (elected technical experts) does. I find it slightly bonkers that people with absolutely no skill or knowledge in an area expect to be able to effectively govern it, I'm looking at you Stephen Conroy. But there are issues with this even, as there are with every political ideal.

 

You're describing a demarchy and the problem I have there is that we struggle to get people to not shirk jury duty as it is. Every friend/family/coworker of mine who got a jury duty notice and mentioned it to me has tried to get out of it. So far only one of them was unable to do so. Wouldn't that potentially leave us back with the same issues we have now? I haven't done a whole lot of reading and thinking on the concept of a demarchy though though.

 

 

I'm getting a little confused as to your position. You seem to be in some middle ground between stateless and statist society, maybe a minarchist?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not touching this one with a 50 ft pole.

 

Was thinking the same, but has been a fascinating read. A lot to say has already been brought up & some is just way beyond me, but here goes.

 

Is it obvious that politicians are somehow far more intelligent than us, far more moral and better-behaved, and have far more wisdom than we?? Personally I've never found one that I would waste a pee on, and I've been in politics and run for Council. They are generally slimy, ingratiating and out for themselves with a mean power streak that reminds me of the worst of school teachers. They HATE it when people won't do what they're told.

 

So why don't we start with removing all laws that don't require a victim to stand up in Court and say "The accused wronged me by committing force upon me". No victim, no crime... and select politicians randomly rather than let them steal our money to bribe us with to vote them in to steal more money...

 

I might be suggesting something stupid here, but does it seem like the majority of politicians seem to have forgotten that they serve us, not the other way around? Or that the people have forgotten that (if the majority agree) they can remove whatever government is in power at the time & choose who they want, rather than what we are offered? Peacefully of course, I'm talking voting, not a revolution.

 

The cost to society as a whole is phenomenal. I probably wouldn't support banning it completely but I wouldn't be opposed to taxing them out of existence. Sure you CAN smoke, but you're sure as hell not going to leave everyone else to foot the bill.

 

I suspect you wont see prohibition in this country and it certainly isn't the road to fascism. The US had it for 14 years under the 18th amendment and everyone is well aware that its a shit idea and causes more problems than it solves. It also didn't serve as a progenitor for totalitarianism in the US.

 

How much money each year flows into the governments coffers from taxes on tobacco & alcohol? Because that's how many reasons there are as to why they wont ban them outright. Sure, some of the money received goes towards anti-smoking campaigns etc but would be a mere trickle in comparison.

 

Damn right, introduce prohibition into this country & you'd see it tear itself apart... & that's just the drinks break at Parliament House.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just gonna throw this out there. irrelevant as anything but is this not the longest 13 (now 14) reply thread in the history of rollaclub haha?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this