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Oil pump failure


Lukaswg

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Hi Jeremy,

                   Just remember, we are not just cooling the head.  The coolant also flows around all four (4) cylinder walls, inside the block.  Cylinder no: 4 walls, also are the hottest in the engine. There are many on this forum, like myself, that will atest, that if you are going to do a ring or rings in, 9 times out of 10, it will be no: 4 piston.

You'll never get perfectly even temperatures across the coolant system, because at the intake point at the front of the block, the coolant will be at it's lowest temperature.  When it exits the engine through the front of the head into the thermostat housing, the temperature of the coolant will be at it's maximum.

What we presently have, (and I will prove with real readings), is that the water at the back of the head can be 10 + deg C higher than the water entering the thermostat.

Introducing cooled coolant directly into the head, may sound good, but I think it would result in serious issues.  All cooled coolant should enter the engine through the block.

What I'm looking for is a simple solution, that anyone can do to their K Series engine, without great cost, or need for machining or fabrication.  A two (2) way water tap/valve seems like a simple "doable" idea.  It might not be perfect, but I'm confident, it will result in a much better coolant temperature differential across the whole engine/block.

As I said earlier.  We could theorise all day, but experimenting & measuring the results, is the only way to get to a reasonable compromise, without "re-engineering".

P.S.  I'm just about to hop on the net, and source a suitable mechanical water tap/valve. If any one has a suggestion, of an existing product, or one from another auto, please post your suggestion here, & have your say.

Cheers Banjo

 

Edited by Banjo
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See I think just supplying whatever can get through a 15 cm hose to the rear would be wise, then restrict that so that the temp is roughly equal across the head.

Interesting that u suggest the coolant is 10 degrees hotter at the back, than it is at the thermostat. I never really thought of it like that, I thought of it like, the coolant is hotter at the back than the front, but I'm not sure why I would think that, because like u describe, it has to first make it's way past 3 2 and 1's valves and next stop is the exit to the thermostat.

Actually, I've just visualised what ur saying, and yeh that's what I think is going on. There are still a few ports in the newer modified gasket which allow coolant to bypass the back of the head and shoot straight through to the front of the head. if u ask me, recon it's just generaly poor design in every vehicle. Coolant should enter the middle of the block, not the front.

I think maybe what I saw with my thermometer is the result of more airflow to the front. Ur actual coolant temps will hold the answer. I'm eager to hear what u find.

As for ur valve, would u perhaps be able to use a solenoid controlled valve?

Like this.

https://m.ebay.com.au/itm/AUDI-A6-A7-4G-3-0-TFSI-A8-SOLENOID-VALVE-COOLANT-VALVE-Magnet-Valve-4h0121671b/273013982977?hash=item3f90e6c701:g:zXwAAOSwBOtY-Joz

Edited by rebuilder86
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Oh and I've had three other crap cars which have headgasketted me, and yes, all three failed at the rear cylinder. All in line 4s.

The only head gasket failure I've had with this particular 4k , last month, I couldnt actually find evidence of a breach and I suspect it was just the head had warped beyond the gaskets ability and it pissed coolant out into the oil, so where in the middle.

 

Actually, number 4 is the only one which is currently showing signs of oil carbon fouling on the spark plug, so yeh, rings are probably more obviously affected by the uneven cooling.

Edited by rebuilder86
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Been thinking about this overnight, & have another thought.

The heater coolant return line, is connected to the input side of the water pump, which is feeding "cooled" coolant from the radiator.  It struck me then, that the heater return coolant, never passes through the radiator.  It bypasses it completely, except for when it gets mixed inside the engine.

This makes perfect sense, when you think about it.  Remember the heater coolant, only flows when you have the heater on.  You only have the heater on, because it is cold inside & outside the vehicle.  If it is cold outside, then this is not a situation, where your coolant will ever get excessively hot.  The cabin air passing through the heater box coil, is also extracting heat from the engine coolant.  Certainly this is not a time you would want, or need, to cool the coolant any more, by passing the heater return coolant, through the radiator, & cooling it even more.

In cold weather, the issue is to keep the engine coolant temperature up to the idea engine operating temperature.  That's why trucks put covers over their radiators, in deep winter regions.

So, when the heater is "Off", & we take hot coolant out of the back of the head, we certainly do not want to return it to the water pump inlet, & bypass the radiator altogether.

So basically, I would leave the heater coolant circuit completely alone. At the point where the coolant comes out of the back of the head, I would put a "T" joint, before the heater coolant tap, & feed this coolant through another tap, and then return the coolant to a point directly under the thermostat, so that this returned water, would always pass through the radiator.

The two water valves on the back of the head, would never be opened together. When one is "A" is open, "B" is closed. When "B" is open, "A" is closed.

This would hopefully, achieve the result we want, without too much complication.  Maybe the mechanical valves could be "tethered"" together, so they worked in tandem, but opposed.  Alternatively, an electric valve/s, but they are expensive.

Have a think through this logic, & see if you can find any holes in it.  Like a said, the proof is in the pudding.

So I need to find a thermostat housing, which has a spare space, or hole where we can attach the return coolant hose-line from the back of the head.

There are a number of different thermostat housings on K series motors.  I know I've got a few in the shed, & I'll try & round them up tonight.

If anyone could post some pics of any thermostat housings you have, that would be great, & we'll find one that suits this purpose best.

Cheers Banjo 

Edited by Banjo
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Yeh I see what ur saying. 

I recon u could just drill a hole and tap it, insert a barbed thread and seal it with that white loctite gasoline resistant threadlocker, which is also good for glycol and water and alloys!

Yeh electric valves seem to be incredibly expensive, that Audi used one was the best I could find. As for switching it, that's pretty easy, just stick a normally closed relay which, when energised along with the other solenoid, opens the contacts and closes solenoid number 2.

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And to think this thread started out about "Oil Pump Failures".

Here are a couple of close up pics I found on the net.

There are quite a few different arrangements of the thermostat housing on K series engines fitted to various Corollas, Starlets, Hi Ace Vans etc.

IMG_2527_zps78268831.thumb.jpg.7e4d09b02ec909ce31479b6d24b64b93.jpg

 

km36addtempswitch.jpg.ce7c0b3fede52ed45a036fde7b6e6934.jpg

 

post-1811-1159756320_LI.jpg.4e0a65e42c8c4eaa952d2e1ea7a3df13.jpg 

 

post-1811-1159756399.jpg.340f994b72c135265157e7d08c8e2cbd.jpg

 

However, I think I have found a perfect one, right under my nose, fitted to a 5K engine I have on a test bed, out in the yard.  I'll take some pics, (when it stops raining) and post here, & see what you think.

P.S.  I like that 3rd pic one, with the two large access points on the RHS of the housing. Anyone got one of those ?

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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Hi Jeremy,

                  The top piece with the hose outlet spout is the thermostat cover to me.  The thermostat sits entirely down inside the lower section, so that to me, that is the thermostat housing, because it houses the thermostat.

The first picture is not back to front. It's a guy here in Australia, with a 4K in a KE25, who fitted a Nissan SR20 aluminium radiator, which has it's inlet & outlet spouts reversed to the standard 4K radiator arrangement, so required the top spout to be reversed.

You can look at his build here, on Performance Forums.

http://www.performanceforums.com/forums/showthread.php?67299806-KE25-corolla-without-powers

Cheers Banjo

 

Edited by Banjo
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Here is the thermostat housing I had all the time, that is perfect for this experiment.

DSC00422SMALL.thumb.jpg.7a3ce3376a971d334a71a24939e4d264.jpg

That hole there is blanked off, & unused. It is quite large, & it should be easy to drill & file out the back of the hole & break into the thermostat area.  there is plenty of "meat" around the hole, to thread it to any size hose fitting I choose.

DSC00424SMALL.thumb.jpg.0edf1dc02c94d59b1d2feb8d625929fc.jpg

Alternatively, if I want to, or need to run the coolant return line on the opposite side of the engine, then there is a large spout already to be used, but this is designed for the radiator bypass, so I'll probably retain that function.

DSC00426SMALL.thumb.jpg.6fe4e0d389ae9fbd170fd3cfac3968bc.jpg

There are two (2) temp sensor points on the thermostat housing, & if I use a cover spout with the threaded hole in the top, I get another measuring point, effectively at the top of the radiator.

Happy days !

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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How much stuff do u have laying round there haha. 

Google image search thermostat housing. It's what the top bit is called. The part that bolts to the head is known as the water outlet. I learnt this when I was trying to find out what the bit we are talking about is called, when trying to find a new one, unsuccessfully. If I'd known u had oodles of em I'd have hit u up haha.

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Quote

I bought my daughter a 2004 Echo last year, & I went out and measured it's radiator & fan up this morning, & it is almost perfect.  It's outside frame couling/shroud, is within a  cm of the KE radiator core dimensions, in both directions.

5a6a8f69bffbf_FanEcho.jpg.8431432b185cd9f89dca8db8d68f5a3a.jpg

If anyone has utilised an Echo fan on a KE sucessfully, please give me a yell.

I will get hold of one, & adapt it, using a spare radiator I have in the shed, then pop it in one weekend.

On paper, it should be an easy & clean swap.

Well, sometimes you can be lucky !   I picked up an Echo radiator & fan complete, this afternoon, here in Brisbane, which I found on Gumtree.

The older retired mechanic, had had it in his garage wrapped up for 10 years.  Came off an Echo, written off, which he bought for other bits, he needed to repair another Echo.

The Echo it came off, had 18K+ klms on it.  It's like new.  Bargain $ 35.00 !

DSC00457small.thumb.jpg.9d5ec2b1d17083269df0fdec37233660.jpg

DSC00458small.thumb.jpg.baee100645fa99a564c3d5d4ce8ce9fc.jpg

 

As you can see, there is not much between them, size wise.  The Echo one looks a bit bigger, but some of that illusion,  is a piece of plastic on the RHS (looking from the front) that can be cut off.

Inlets are on the same side at the top, but outlets on opposite sides, at the bottom.  Outlets & are a fraction smaller in dia. (28mm vs 30mm)

I'll see how easy it is to attach the fan assembly to the KE radiator, but really, it might be just as easy, to swap the whole radiator & fan complete.

What do you think.  Probably easier to make a decision, once I remove the KE radiator out, & see how it all fits.

Cheers Banjo

Edited by Banjo
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In my research on things coolant, in K series engines, I've always presumed all K series engines had coolant bypass circuits, from the base of the thermostat housing to the 16mm spout on the inlet of the water pump. The Toyota Yellow Bible depicts it that way.

All the 3K & 4K after market, replacement water pumps on the net, are depicted with a 16mm spout off the water pump inlet, to connect a bypass coolant circuit to.

5a723d342791d_4Kwaterpump_LI.jpg.185e25cd1c219ba3840ed2e9e59ab0d8.jpg

 

However, around my garage, are a few old genuine Toyota K series water pumps, that have no 16mm spout off the water pump inlet, so I can only presume that maybe some early 3K engines in KE10 & KE15 models, didn't have a coolant bypass circuit.   Has anyone got an original Rolla, without a bypass circuit ?

I even have a new aftermarket K series water pump, that has the 16mm spout on the water pump inlet, but is blanked off inside.  Presumably, this is so it can be used in either application.

If you need it for a bypass application, you just drill out the blank aluminium casting.

Cheers Banjo

 

Edited by Banjo
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Reading the service manual for S engines last night, they referred to the little metal tang placed through the hole in the thermostat as the jiggle valve and it is supposed align with a metal tang on the thermostat housing, and you guessed it, when installed correctly it points to the top of the hose.

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