Ke70 Front

[polaegame]

Front needs more low and stiff, I'm going to put it to the floor...

 

Should I:

A. Get chopped stiffer springs and tie them in (illegal)

B. Weld on a sleeve coilover kit (no good choice of insert)

C. Wait for some hachi struts to come up on Gumtree (expensive if it ever happens)

 

Any other ideas appreciated! :-)

 

Also sorry about the pun at the start.

[styler]

People want a bit more range these days...

 

A: Not captive = Not good (Zip ties will break eventually)

B: Some inserts for 48mm but 51mm has better range of inserts

C: AE86 struts could swap in, check first.

D: AE86 aftermarket coilover suspension full kit, check first.

 

There are 2 types of coilovers, standard adjustment (travel reducing) and base height adjustable (travel stays the same).

Standard struts are difficult to DIY coilover due to damper travel, aftermarket base height adjustable don't have this problem.

[ke70dave]

The ae86 swap is not as simple as just swapping over the struts, you need basically the entire front end. Steering arms, brakes (calipers and discs) and hubs.

 

Unfortunately to get anything decent in the front end of a ke70 you need to replace the whole lot, suspension and brakes in one go. Ae86 is one option that works well (very well), people have success with swapping in the xt130 strut and brakes too, I'm not entirely clued up in this. XT130 stuff must be getting rare too though.

 

shock travel without base adjustment is not an issue if you pick the correct shock and set the ride height correctly. Styler what ae86 shocks are base adjustable? i don't think i have ever seen any.

[B.L.Z.BUB]

BC coilovers are base height adjustable.

 

Xt130 struts are an excellent upgrade but are a lot of work but give far better cheap brake upgrade options over ae86.

 

If you're gonna waste money on strut upgrades don't do it to stock struts.

 

Don't chop your springs. Illegal and will make it handle like shit.

 

Edit: but if you rail it super low it doesn't matter what you do it'll handle like shit no matter what.

[altezzaclub]

Surely its just simple engineering...

 

Cut the spring base off the KE70 strut and re-weld it on, just like we did on the rally car. If you want to lower it 50mm, weld it on 50mm lower.

 

Cut 50mm out of the strut tube and reweld it.

 

Then shorten the shock shaft by the same amount. Just cut it near the top, grind to points and re-weld. If you're not a welder then pay an engineer to do it. That lowers the whole system by 50mm and retains all the factory relationships.

 

If you want it stiffer learn about the wet struts and close up or stiffen the valves that the oil passes through. You could cut the springs and move the spring base upwards to keep the same low ride height, but the spring will be stiffer.

 

Cars raced in Formulae One with shocks like those for decades!

[ke70dave]

Yes that is all well and good, but finding a suitable shorter shock absorber insert for your now shorter ke70 strut tube is the issue.

[Taz_Rx]

...let alone fitting the wheels back on!

[polaegame]

Great info guys thankyou.

 

I just picked up xt130 struts hubs brakes and lcas, getting delivered.

My issue now is what springs should I run? What sizes from other cars can I get for a stiff rate?

[B.L.Z.BUB]

You'll need to get custom springs made or convert to coilovers.

 

The upper spring perch is too big for the ke70 strut towers so you need to use a KE upper perch. So you'd need to run a ke70 spring which is too small for the lower perch.

 

Best bet, get an HSD coilovers kit from Otomoto, shorten the struts 40mm to suit shorter shocks and get the xt130 steering arms shortened.

 

 

[styler]

Surely its just simple engineering...

 

Cut the spring base off the KE70 strut and re-weld it on, just like we did on the rally car. If you want to lower it 50mm, weld it on 50mm lower.

 

Cut 50mm out of the strut tube and reweld it.

 

Then shorten the shock shaft by the same amount. Just cut it near the top, grind to points and re-weld. If you're not a welder then pay an engineer to do it. That lowers the whole system by 50mm and retains all the factory relationships.

 

If you want it stiffer learn about the wet struts and close up or stiffen the valves that the oil passes through. You could cut the springs and move the spring base upwards to keep the same low ride height, but the spring will be stiffer.

 

Cars raced in Formulae One with shocks like those for decades!

 

Unfortunately its not that simple, even if it was there are current engineering modifications that are superior to these older methods. Wet struts aren't too bad, they just aren't gas charged and a bit leaky these days :)

 

You can't just run springs from another car, see above and making standard struts into DIY coilovers is difficult due to travel. Look at how many damper inserts people have tried to use its crazy.

Have you looked at the NCOP? That has rules and regulations for modifications in street cars and the Engineer will use this to check before its gets passed for a mod plate to allow rego.

Edited August 4, 2015 by styler

[altezzaclub]

The upper spring perch is too big for the ke70 strut towers so you need to use a KE upper perch. So you'd need to run a ke70 spring which is too small for the lower perch.

 

Yep- that's the problem we ran into with Celcia struts on the KE70. We ended up getting AE86 tapered coils off Kings Springs for them.

[polaegame]

Sweet. If I do the coilover conversion and drop 40mm or so will I have much issue with the standard travel on the inserts?

Edited August 5, 2015 by polaegame

[B.L.Z.BUB]

You'll need shorter inserts. I used celica ones.

[B.L.Z.BUB]

This is how mine sat with the coilovers wound all the way up with this setup, on 15" wheels.

 

 

http://www.rollaclub.com/board/uploads/monthly_06_2014/post-8907-0-78962600-1402302484_thumb.jpg

[LittleRedSpirit]

Ive had two different setups now.

 

Firstly you will find a lot of shock options when it comes to short stroke are 51mm so abandon any idea you have of retaining ke70 struts. The bearings are tiny anyhow. As are AE86 bearings.

 

Changing up to xt130 gear simultaneously lets you have a brake upgrade, a bearing upgrade and a strut upgrade that opens up the choice of 51mm struts. RA 40 struts will work too being very similar to xt130, but they have a bolt on caliper bracket, not a cast steel machined stub for the brakes. This is the key difference as they are a bit easier to make high spec brake upgrades for. The upgrades people mention for xt130 use a massive and reasonably heavy Hilux multi pot calipers. The best bang for buck upgrade for the the xt130 is using an rt132 caliper (or xt130 wagon) which is an alternate factory twin piston. That being said its old, will need service and isn't a great design.

 

I've chosen ra40 struts for my ae86 as I plan to fit modern multi piston calipers from Wilwood or someone like that at some point. I have a free choice about bracket design and could use a dozen different Toyota hubs to switch around and make a sub 280mm vented rotor work with correct offset.

 

Now on to length.

 

You're going to be largely dictated by the ride height you want to run. Shortest acceptable for ok performance would be the AE92 / TRD short Stroke AE86 / ST185-205 length shock body which are all as near as makes no difference in length and stroke. Out of these you'd be best with ae86 short stroke ones for ke70 as the valving will work best, however I was happy with my st185 koni yellow that I used, despite no compression adjustment.

 

As an example this car is set to the maximum height you could possibly run with that setup:

 

I found it sucked on the street a bit, just because on ramped up bumps you could top it out, but it didnt handle well any lower than this, you'd have to significantly rework the rear end to make it all sweet again. You wouldn't believe how many ʞ©$ɟ tards will tell you low and stiff is good but they have no idea. People like this:

 

Disregard their information as its unsafe. Going low will make your car illegal irrespective of any other mod so you may as well just butcher the thing and torch it if you want to street it on the rails.

 

If you were to run it low you'd be soon sick of it and you'd be keen to develop something with Droop, and captive springs, and a sense of plushness that makes you want to push the car harder.

 

So that brings me to the next length option. The SW20 length option. I've gone this route now and have found its made a much more perfected set up with a better range of adjustment through height at least. I'm yet to drive on it. I just shortened the RA struts enough to fit the bodies of the sw20 shocks, and then had a guy weld on a HSD coil over kit with 5kg springs from memory.

 

I like softer suspension. Compared to most doriftos anyhow. I like to stay in control and build something that works on Australian roads that can be driven on with the confidence that you wont be defected. Most of the very short options above are designed for golf green smooth Japanese driving conditions on their tracks, so they seem great cool and nostalgic but you'd have to have the dirt rally shocks to perform on our streets. I rate the old oil Greens but anything non adjustable is going to be too hard and expensive to set up. Tokico HTS 102 are the top option amongst the jap ones but they are unsuited to our conditions in my opinion. KYB AGX are only 4 way adjustable so Id steer clear. Especially for the price, plus I've heard nothing but unhappy reports about their performance, the main knock being that they are simply not adequate at any setting.

 

To conclude, I bet you thoght this was easy. It isnt.

 

It costs serious money to do it safely and legally. KE70s are cheap to buy (or should be) because compared to a 3000 dollar Silvia you have to do a lot to get them performing. Most people get to the stage you're at, realise what they are in for when someone who knows actually lays out what's really involved then they sell the car and buy a Silvia. If you have a genuine enough love for the ke70 to spend the money it will reward you, but nobody except another ke70 owner will really get it. Girls certainly don't.

 

So your next question will be motor then diff upgrades. A t series rear end which will widely seem to take 200hp 200NM max. is about $1500 give or take and will need service when you get it. You'll also have to pay through the nose for a flogged tail shaft from some middleman.

 

You can bolt in a 16v 4age, or GZE, or a 20v 4age but only if you have an after market ecu to control it, and Microtecs don't seem to work right for most on map vs tps.

 

Your stock swaybars are fine, try changing the bushings to nolathane first on the car, then see what actually needs changing.

 

Don't change 5 things at once cause if something becomes undesirable its impossible to identify why.

 

Good luck.