Zeitgeist

[Redwarf]

Dude, I spent a good deal of time researching it. I have read a number of quite good and objective accounts of the movie. I would not make an uninformed statement. I just couldn't sit through the whole movie, as I consider my time more valuable than that.

 

You want discussion. We're having discussion. Just because we don't agree with you means that we are not allowed to make a point? It maybe new to you, it may even be a revelation, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with you.

 

I hate to say it, but there's not a lot of new ideas in it, particularly pertaining to 9/11.

 

I work with a number of hard core conspiracy theorists. One of which I know for a fact has worked indirectly for the CIA. If you believed (or wanted to believe) half of what they say, you'd wrap yourself in cotton wool, hide under your bed and never see day light again.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's good that you've seen it and have opinions, but we're fully entitled to ours as well.

[Tume]

There were enough facts in there to 1) confirm the fact that religion is a bunch of crap and 2) confirm the fact that a government bombed its own people. I thought, for example, it might be interesting how a religious person might respond to the film... etc.

 

You may believe that religion is a bunch of crap but that doesn't mean its confirmed at all.

I remember a quote but can't remember where from that was along the lines of:

 

If a man doesn't believe in a higher being of existence for which to account for, after life.

What is to stop him from committing evil without consequence forever.

 

I may have mumbled it up a bit but I believe the reasoning behind it is still there. If someone can't answer for something after this life then whats to stop them?

 

Sorry bit off topic. Also I have a feeling religion and politics shouldn't be argued? Maybe?

[Redwarf]

There were enough facts in there to 1) confirm the fact that religion is a bunch of crap and 2) confirm the fact that a government bombed its own people. I thought, for example, it might be interesting how a religious person might respond to the film... etc.

Confirm is a huge word in this context.

 

1) Religion has been debated by all and sundry for a number of thousand years, and by better people than are present here. One doco isn't going to change that.

 

2) There is still no hard evidence that this is so. If there was, things would be different. No, really.

[Mybowlcut]

Dude, I spent a good deal of time researching it. I have read a number of quite good and objective accounts of the movie. I would not make an uninformed statement. I just couldn't sit through the whole movie, as I consider my time more valuable than that.

 

You want discussion. We're having discussion. Just because we don't agree with you means that we are not allowed to make a point? It maybe new to you, it may even be a revelation, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with you.

 

I hate to say it, but there's not a lot of new ideas in it, particularly pertaining to 9/11.

 

I work with a number of hard core conspiracy theorists. One of which I know for a fact has worked indirectly for the CIA. If you believed (or wanted to believe) half of what they say, you'd wrap yourself in cotton wool, hide under your bed and never see day light again.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's good that you've seen it and have opinions, but we're fully entitled to ours as well.

First of all, opinions were what I was looking for when I started this thread. But I was hoping that the people giving them would have at least watched it, which was the whole point of the discussion.

 

I know the whole thing is probably old by now, but having only just seen it and searches on rollaclub bringing up no mention of it, I thought I'd see what everyone (who had seen it) thought about it.

 

Just so you know, I am a firm believer in fact rather than faith, science over religion etc. I like to think that things that are proven are the only things that hold truth. But I can also open my mind to ideas that aren't proven or that I do not have immediate proof of. 9/11 happened on the other side of the world, but I can still say from the film that there is a good chance it was planned by the government. That is not to say I'm saying it's gospel, just that there is good chance.

 

Personally, the word conspiracy theory makes me cringe. However, having watched the movie, I saw enough evidence (for me - I'm aware of the whole opinion thing) that the towers were blown up with explosives. Rather than reading accounts of the documentary, if you had watched it I think you'd be doing a bit more questioning. The fact that the architects who designed the WTC towers designed it to take the impact of (multiple) Boeing aircraft is one of many compelling reasons to believe that one plane could not make that building collapse the way it did.

 

You might think I'm talking crap, but what's the point of accusing me of that without watching it first?

 

You may believe that religion is a bunch of crap but that doesn't mean its confirmed at all.

I remember a quote but can't remember where from that was along the lines of:

 

If a man doesn't believe in a higher being of existence for which to account for, after life.

What is to stop him from committing evil without consequence forever.

 

I may have mumbled it up a bit but I believe the reasoning behind it is still there. If someone can't answer for something after this life then whats to stop them?

 

Sorry bit off topic. Also I have a feeling religion and politics shouldn't be argued? Maybe?

Pleaseeeee watch the documentary. As I said, I'm not one for believing in stuff that is based on false premise. I'm not trying to offend people who are religious (shouldn't have said religion is a bunch of crap), rather find out what they have to say about what zeitgeist put forward. I grew up in a religious family and went to a private primary school. We went to church every sunday and every day at school we went to mass... but yeah I don't need to say any more.

 

As for the quote, I'm not quite sure what it's supposed to mean. I don't believe in higher beings; I believe that plain old energy is the highest being that exists and that everything that exists is made of energy, hence nothing is "higher" than anything else. I'm interested to know more about what the quote meant though.

 

Confirm is a huge word in this context.

 

1) Religion has been debated by all and sundry for a number of thousand years, and by better people than are present here. One doco isn't going to change that.

 

2) There is still no hard evidence that this is so. If there was, things would be different. No, really.

I know that one documentary won't change religion, but I was hoping to hear what you thought of the specific arguments raised by the film regarding religion.

 

As for the 9/11 evidence, the film spends a good deal of time thoroughly disecting each aspect of the bombings. Again, I was hoping to hear peoples opinions on specific points - if they thought something was bs, why was it bs?

[Xany]

I watched it ages ago......and agree with mr redwarf. However.....cause redwarf works on planes i would like to get his opinion on the pentagon crash....missile or boeing rob? wadda think?

[Mybowlcut]

I watched it ages ago......and agree with mr redwarf. However.....cause redwarf works on planes i would like to get his opinion on the pentagon crash....missile or boeing rob? wadda think?

Again, in the interest of an interesting discussion, what do you disagree with the movie about?

 

I know you're asking him, but since you saw it, you probably would have saw that the guy who was supposedly flying that plane into the pentagon was deemed a crap flier by his peers in his flying course. Also, the 270 degree turn that the plane apparently performed but (prove me wrong here, I know little about the maneuverability of aircraft) was said to be extremely difficult/impossible, the fact that there was no remains from the plane (even though the turbines are made of steel that can withstand explosions and weigh 6 ton each)... etc. What are your opinions on this?

[Jason]

Tume, that truly disgusted me when people say religion is the reason people don't commit rape and kill people for fun?!?! I was brought up in a religious family and never believed in anything. Yet I'm not a rapest or a murderer :hmm:

 

Maybe a empathy has something to do with it? Or wait what was that thing called the crusades? I forgot was that about handing out flowers and showing people peace?

 

My opinion is that the governments do stuff that we don't want to know about to make our lives more peaceful. If they told people about every little world threatening thing the general population would freak out, or maybe carnt handle the truth on something and society would fall apart (bad thing you choose? I like my money grubbing materialist self), I blame it on how stupid the general population is. So don't blame the government blame your peers and stupid people.

 

For eg lets say aliens landed (or they reveled aliens existed) a lot of religious would either fall apart or say its the end of the exsistance, the omega some shit like that. That would throw the entire world into chaos do you really want that. No. extreme example but you get my point.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Jason

[Taz_Rx]

I saw a movie once that said the moon was made of cheese. It didn't make me lie awake at night considering what type.

 

Charlseburg! :hmm:

 

.....We've forgotten the crackers Grommet!!!! :hmm:

[orangeLJ]

The twin towers may have been built to take multiple impacts (not sure on that, but will take your word for the sake of discussion)

 

BUT

 

there were serious flaws with the metal work, and heat proofing of the sub structure.

 

There were flaws in the building practices aswell, nothing is perfect, and nothing is ever built 100% foolproof.

 

Once one section let go, it was like Jenga, the base couldnt take the impact of half the building shifting ontop of the other half, IMO it seems like simple physics.

 

There will always be people who doubt the governments and people who doubt everything they hear or read, but to be honest, If you take these sort of docos as truth, then you will be paranoid for the rest of your life.

 

Half of these documentaries do nothing but show one side of the story, they don't look at things from a subjective point of view and they use carefully chosen facts to back it up and make it seem real, the documentary medium makes it more realistic and more believable.

 

Take this for example.

 

I could say that rollaclub has only green KE model corollas featured.

 

Now we know thats not right. there are many members with different models and different coloured cars,

 

BUT by selectively showing 4 or 5 green KE corollas and omitting anything else from here, to someone who has no first hand evidence, that may seem plausible. I could then say that due to time constraints I couldnt show anymore corollas. and so it goes on.

 

They present their argument, they interpret secondary sources, and they put forward an opinion as fact relying on people having no in depth first hand knowledge of the subject and preying on underlying social fears (eg. "the govt is out to get us" type things)

 

Take it onboard, by all means investigate it, but NEVER take anything as fact just because it is presented in a documentary, remember that they are all made by some bloke with an opinion and an underlying motive.

 

and for the sake of discussion, I don't believe in "god" but I do believe in a higher power, I'm a man of science, but there are still somethings that can't be explained (eg. what provided the initial burst of energy that caused the chain of events known as the big bang?)

 

I just don't believe we can name or worship that higher power, its there, but it has absolutely nothing to do with our day to day living.

 

I understand why people need religion, people need something to hold on to, they need to find strength in the fact they believe we all go somewhere after we die, they need to think their loved ones are somewhere better once they pass away. I don't blame them, religion helps people deal with the attrocities around us (although religion is 90% the cause IMO)

[godlovesugly]

The whole 911 conspiracy thing is just too far fetched for me... the logistics involved in setting that up to make it LOOK like Al-qaeda did it would be impossible... you'd need to have THOUSANDS of people involved who all had no problem killing innocent americans and all of them can keep their mouths shut FOREVER!!! it is not going to happen.

 

as for religion, i don't believe in god, never have. i don't think I'm going to heaven, or hell, i think when you die thats it. but ive got no problems with religion, i think in moderation its a good thing cause it gives people hope and with most people it does make them a better person because they have a reason to be a better person... everone wants to impress their imaginery friends...

[BlindKidSeeks]

I've seen both Zeitgeist and Zeitgeist : addendum and both are great movies.. althought the Latter is much much more direct.

 

If you havent seen it, and you'd like to see what the other side of this financial crisis could look like.. then i suggest you take a good look, and gt into the nitty gritty of what the world economy has ben built on.

 

Kudos to anyone who actually takes the time to watch this film and understand the implications of how our world could end up.

 

BKS.

 

edit:

 

On 9/11 and the conspiracy surrounding it... there more evidence of coverup and conspiracy that there was an actual inside job than there is evidence that there were terrorist attacks.

 

to your reseacrh and watch some movies like "The Great Conspiracy".

 

The most frightening thing is the way just by chance, the Army was training on that same morning.. guess what the scenario was??? anyone??? yes thats right attacks on Buildings by hijacked aircraft.

 

NOW... the really freaky thing is the UK Subway bombings.... SAME THING!!! army just happened to be trainign that morning on exactly the same scenario.

 

In both cases.. there was MASSIVE cnfucson on whether or not these were "real world" happenings, or simulations.

 

i could go on and on about the twin towers collapsing... and how it wasnt by chance that the FBI director of research on the BinLaden family was fird from his position and made the Head of security of .. guess which buildings.....

 

OMG... don't get me started on Tower 7!!!!! yes it was a control demoltion .... that kind of stuff takes Months to prepare.. to make a building collaps on its foundations... they said it was weaken by the other collapses... but to fell a building in 6 hours??????? gimie a break. Did anyone else know that building 7 also held a control bunker... that the Governemnt used to "run the war" if shit ever went down. completely bomb proof, sealed off to the rest of the world. seems a prety convenient place to run the operation from... and whoops, we had to knock it down too.

 

 

i could go on..... and on.....

Edited January 27, 2009 by BlindKidSeeks

[Mybowlcut]

Tume, that truly disgusted me when people say religion is the reason people don't commit rape and kill people for fun?!?! I was brought up in a religious family and never believed in anything. Yet I'm not a rapest or a murderer :y:

 

Maybe a empathy has something to do with it? Or wait what was that thing called the crusades? I forgot was that about handing out flowers and showing people peace?

 

My opinion is that the governments do stuff that we don't want to know about to make our lives more peaceful. If they told people about every little world threatening thing the general population would freak out, or maybe carnt handle the truth on something and society would fall apart (bad thing you choose? I like my money grubbing materialist self), I blame it on how stupid the general population is. So don't blame the government blame your peers and stupid people.

 

For eg lets say aliens landed (or they reveled aliens existed) a lot of religious would either fall apart or say its the end of the exsistance, the omega some shit like that. That would throw the entire world into chaos do you really want that. No. extreme example but you get my point.

That's more like it! Finally this thing is going somewhere.

 

Just out of curiosity, what do the governments do that we don't want to know about that make our lives more peaceful? I agree with not telling the public about world threatening things for the sake of calm, but when the world threatening thing is a corrupt government agenda it's a bit different.

 

The twin towers may have been built to take multiple impacts (not sure on that, but will take your word for the sake of discussion)

 

BUT

 

there were serious flaws with the metal work, and heat proofing of the sub structure.

 

There were flaws in the building practices aswell, nothing is perfect, and nothing is ever built 100% foolproof.

 

Once one section let go, it was like Jenga, the base couldnt take the impact of half the building shifting ontop of the other half, IMO it seems like simple physics.

Yeah, several people responsible for the architecture had voice/video recordings stating it was built to take multiple impacts. There were also several comparison videos of a building being demolished and one of the WTCs going down and the structure of the collapses were exactly the same.

 

Seriously flaws with the metal work? Yes, they show footage of the core colums after the collapse.

 

"Pancake theory. According to which, the fires, while not melting the steel, heated it up sufficiently to cause the floors weakened by the airplane strikes to breake loose from the steel columns and this started a chain reaction." According to that theory you should have been able to see a whole stack of crumbled floors piled on top of each other and spindle of core columns standing.

 

"There is no scenario for a pancake effect of buildings falling that allows them to fall at the rate of freefall."

 

A demolition expert was shown talking about how they cut the beam at an angle when demolishing a building. There were pools of molten metal (I don't know why Redwarf was making fun of this - if you watch the videos you can see it) at the bottom of each tower. "For well over 6 weeks after the collapse, hot spots of over 2000F were documented in the debris. This is 500F hotter than jet fuel even burns." It goes on...

 

I agree that nothing is ever built 100% foolproof, but I'm very interested to know what flaws could have brought a building down like that.

 

There will always be people who doubt the governments and people who doubt everything they hear or read, but to be honest, If you take these sort of docos as truth, then you will be paranoid for the rest of your life.

 

Half of these documentaries do nothing but show one side of the story, they don't look at things from a subjective point of view and they use carefully chosen facts to back it up and make it seem real, the documentary medium makes it more realistic and more believable.

 

Take this for example.

 

I could say that rollaclub has only green KE model corollas featured.

 

Now we know thats not right. there are many members with different models and different coloured cars,

 

BUT by selectively showing 4 or 5 green KE corollas and omitting anything else from here, to someone who has no first hand evidence, that may seem plausible. I could then say that due to time constraints I couldnt show anymore corollas. and so it goes on.

 

They present their argument, they interpret secondary sources, and they put forward an opinion as fact relying on people having no in depth first hand knowledge of the subject and preying on underlying social fears (eg. "the govt is out to get us" type things)

For the 100th time, have you watched it? I never wanted to discuss these "types" of documentaries, I wanted to discuss this specific one and the ideas brought forward by it. I wanted to see what people thought of specific evidence in the documentary and where it was all going.

 

The fact is, they show all the evidence needed for both sides of the story. The fact that goverment officials were having breakfast with the guy who paid the guy who took down the first building on the morning of 9/11. George Bush's ties to the Bin laden family, etc, etc. Again, watch it and you'll know what I mean. What possible gain could they get out of preying on social fears? The whole movie is trying to point out that the government is preying on social fears so they can control the people. As a guy says in the movie, it's the Carl Schmitt idea, that if a nation has an enemy figure they are united and are easier to manipulate and hence further an agenda. If everyone saw this movie and decided that it was true, what did zeitgeist get out of it? A laugh? :hmm:

 

Take it onboard, by all means investigate it, but NEVER take anything as fact just because it is presented in a documentary, remember that they are all made by some bloke with an opinion and an underlying motive.

VERY true. I still doubt some things in the movie, purely because I don't know enough about it to believe that it's true. I'm not stupid enough to believe it as the truth and I'm glad I'm one of the people who can make that distinction. The motive though, in this case is one of liberation and truth; a pure motive. They are trying to educate you on the things that are going on around you. They're not saying "now, after watching our documentary, go out and do this".

 

and for the sake of discussion, I don't believe in "god" but I do believe in a higher power, I'm a man of science, but there are still somethings that can't be explained (eg. what provided the initial burst of energy that caused the chain of events known as the big bang?)

 

I just don't believe we can name or worship that higher power, its there, but it has absolutely nothing to do with our day to day living.

 

I understand why people need religion, people need something to hold on to, they need to find strength in the fact they believe we all go somewhere after we die, they need to think their loved ones are somewhere better once they pass away. I don't blame them, religion helps people deal with the attrocities around us (although religion is 90% the cause IMO)

Very well put. :hmm:

[Mybowlcut]

The whole 911 conspiracy thing is just too far fetched for me... the logistics involved in setting that up to make it LOOK like Al-qaeda did it would be impossible... you'd need to have THOUSANDS of people involved who all had no problem killing innocent americans and all of them can keep their mouths shut FOREVER!!! it is not going to happen.

You don't need thousands of people.

 

People are f&&ked up. If you tell them that by killing a few hundred people, that them and their families and their children's families would be set for life, some people would take the opportunity.

 

The problem I have with that though, is that they weren't setting it up to look like al qaeda planted explosives, rather that they hijacked some planes and flew them into the buildings.

 

Please watch the movie as it does a better job at explaining it than I ever will.

 

I've seen both Zeitgeist and Zeitgeist : addendum and both are great movies.. althought the Latter is much much more direct.

 

If you havent seen it, and you'd like to see what the other side of this financial crisis could look like.. then i suggest you take a good look, and gt into the nitty gritty of what the world economy has ben built on.

 

Kudos to anyone who actually takes the time to watch this film and understand the implications of how our world could end up.

 

BKS.

:hmm:

[Rich_Rolla]

I personally am not much of a deep thinker.

 

So, I'll pass on it.

[Jason KE30]

personally i reckon that the whole 9/11 conspiracy could be correct.

i mean there's just too much evidence to say that the government didn't know what was going on.