styler Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 (edited) indeed so :) i'll eleborate, if you cut stock springs they will be slightly stiffer but still too soft for the reduction in travel from missing coils. the stock coils add much needed height, not stiffness is what i was trying to say. i reckon the reduction in height is not compensated by the increase of stiffness... yeah if you imagine a coil as a long bar with one end stuck in a wall: make the bar shorter and it will be harder to bend from less leverage and harder to twist as there is more twist per distance of material make it longer and it will be easier to bend from added leverage and easier to twist from less twist per distance of material. thats the way i see it, theres formulas to work out spring rates, could be interesting... i still think the reduction in height is not compensated by the stiffness gained from cutting coils and by the time the spring is stiff enough from removing coils it would not be captive or effective in travel. like take some stock springs at 330mm cut to 300mm and compare to some low king springs at 300mm and 30% stiffer. kings springs: - 30mm drop which is 10%. - 30% stiffer stock springs at 330mm and cut 30mm off: - 30mm drop which is 10% - 10% stiffer is my guess? thats what I'm saying :bash: Edited October 31, 2008 by styler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philbey Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 I see where you're coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
styler Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 we should work out the chopped springs stiffness with some formulas, would be interesting... ill see if i can find some on the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irokin Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 OK you guys need to stop and have a think for a moment. You're handing out advice for something which is clearly illegal (and for good reason). There was a guy who was involved in a fatality in Sydney some years ago. It was found his car had cut springs and he was subsequently charged with manslaughter. Now should this happen to someone who's read a thread supporting the cutting of springs on Rollaclub technically they could turn around and say "this guy advised me that it was ok and safe". You (and potentially I as the webmaster for not taking action) could subsequently be charged with accessory to manslaughter (ok I'm not a lawyer but there is a liability there). Now I dunno about you but I would rather not leave myself open for even the possibility of that happening. OK so even if it does happen and a lawyer could get you/I out of it that costs money to defend and thats money I don't have. "Sure" I hear you say "But there's lots of other advice we hand out that could turn out the same way". True, but the vast majority of those can be engineered to be legal and it's not our responsibility to ensure that people do in fact engineer their cars. Cut springs cannot be engineered. They cannot be made legal and therefore Rollaclub or any of its members should not be advising people that it is the right thing to do. I will be asking moderators to respond to any future cut spring threads stating Rollaclubs view on the subject, removing any posts supporting the idea and locking the thread. I really do hate to be the fun police but I think this is in everyone's best interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 (edited) F=kx k is the spring rate. F is force. x is travel. Edited October 31, 2008 by Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiP Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 If it is temporary then why go through the effort of cutting them in the first place?? Buy your self some lowered springs. Go to Pedders and they can set you up with shocks and lowered spings. Not sure if its legal but I've been told that if you want lowered springs lower, you can send them away to be compressed lower. (If that makes sense). But again, not sure if its legal. Just don't go the doggie way about it, buy lowered springs. I'm sure you can find some on ebay if you look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irokin Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Not sure if its legal but I've been told that if you want lowered springs lower, you can send them away to be compressed lower. (If that makes sense). But again, not sure if its legal Its not. I believe the wording is something to the effect of "No cutting, heating or welding". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddy Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 The automotive trade unfortunately is not a registered trade like plumbing, or building. This means, every man and his dog can - and will work on cars. When you go to automotive school, you learn about vehicle components. What works, why things happen. Without joe-blow going to tech school, he doesn't realize that doing selected modifications could potentially be an issue. If the neighbor's son's daughter's friend's handiman's uncle thinks that a modification can be completed, then hell - he may as well be correct, because the strength of the rules regulating what can and cannot be done on cars may as well not exist; considering how little appears to get picked up these days. fortunately, i have little to no time for people that try to do modifications like this. Because, it would not only waist my time, but make going to automotive school a waist. Why even bother going to school in the first place, if the next guy in line is going to work on his friends car & get a cash job out of it. I think even common sense these days is optional, and for some is regulated by what comes in a little package, normally obtained either weekly or fortnightly. Its called a Salary. Depending on the size of this factor, gives people a reason to do things there way. can't afford to get the plumber in to finish off that outdoor fancy feature?; Ah, better keep saving money. What about the back patio thats over hanging the rear house drop off ? Ah.. need to get that approved & built.. Better keep saving as well; or make some budget changes to suit. But what about my car, id like to put some pleasure into it as well ! Ah, that don't matter, yo' . Want it to go around corners better? TV has those V8's around a hill, that look low with big wheels. *brain fart* if i put big wheels, and get my car lower - it might actually go better !. Ah, but here is the good thing. I don't Have to pay someone who knows what there talking about.. i don't even have to worry about legalities.. chance of the card deck says i wont get caught in time, or if i do - they'll probably pass it or look over it. So, down to the local bob-jane Umart for some special Out-of-rounders on the widest set of fu11i s!ck rims, complements of China Casting Co. Back at the house, little jimmy joe, now onto his 3rd VB has realised that you should use the angle guard on the angle grinder, as safety is first. The neighbor's son's daughter's friend's handiman's uncle arrived to give his opinion "Ah yeah, lop a coil off here, Car will pass the coke can under the sill test = lets go". Now that the car has 4 bits of metal missing (not going to even ask how they managed to get the front struts apart _ ); time to install those habib-spec wheels. "Ah "Gulp goes the last VB Can" - we need another pack man. Lets install the wheels. Turns out that the fronts hit the struts.. ahh what do we do ? Head down to auto bahn to get some spacer plates & some more vb.- wow, how easy was that? Problem identified -> Solution sorted -> 2 birds killed with 1 stone. Not only does jimmys car now look better, on a scale of somethings better than shopping center enhanced hub caps - BUT NOW ACTUALLY DOESN'T HANDLE. It just barrels into corners better. Ah, you don't need to learn about Suspension geometry. Not that it changes the travel rate, or effects things like toe or camber - let alone bottoming out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xany Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 (edited) What he said ^^^^^^^^ *nods head* Edited October 31, 2008 by Xany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67Rolla-Ken Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 :) Well done Teddy, I think you said it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ke20nut Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 100% true to the advice given we could be liable. I'm a qualified mechanic and 3yrs ago i lost a very good friend in a car accident. The accident happened as they had chopped the springs in a VL commodore . They were doing a good speed and got slighty airbourne over a rise / hump in the road. As they were airbourne the diff saggs to try keep the wheels on the road. Cos the springs were chopped and alot shorter than than should be they fell out of there mounting saddles and the vehicle come down with the spring cocked sideways , giving absolutely no spring. When the car hit the road it was like a rock bouncing across water. It bounced so hard it threw the car sideways and rolled instantly for round about 50mtrs. I know speed were a factor but us guys in the workshop knew the springs were a big contributing factor. It just reminds me our hobby of cars is the greatest thing but can also be the worst thing if not treated with respect. Any mods do them properly or don't do them at all. Remember its not only you but other people who use our roads. Would you wanna live with the thought of hurting another road user cos you wanted chopped springs cos they make the car look good. And no they don't necessarily make the car handle good. When you loose such a good young mate to something so small like chopped springs it cuts you up pretty deep to never do it. After all how much are a set of lowered springs or off set struts. NOT AS MUCH AS SOMEONES LIFE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mybowlcut Posted October 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Geez. Forgot I'd posted this but I'm glad I didn't chop the springs. :) Will just go to pedders... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ke20nut Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 nice work , happy cruizzzen :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 well i guess at the end of the day when it comes down to it cut in not legal, so its upto the owner to way up wether they will do it or not. to me the way i do it i can't see why it would cause any harm, apart from being to low, but that can be the same with proper made springs any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYSTIK[RL] Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 OK you guys need to stop and have a think for a moment. You're handing out advice for something which is clearly illegal (and for good reason). There was a guy who was involved in a fatality in Sydney some years ago. It was found his car had cut springs and he was subsequently charged with manslaughter. Now should this happen to someone who's read a thread supporting the cutting of springs on Rollaclub technically they could turn around and say "this guy advised me that it was ok and safe". You (and potentially I as the webmaster for not taking action) could subsequently be charged with accessory to manslaughter (ok I'm not a lawyer but there is a liability there). Now I dunno about you but I would rather not leave myself open for even the possibility of that happening. OK so even if it does happen and a lawyer could get you/I out of it that costs money to defend and thats money I don't have. "Sure" I hear you say "But there's lots of other advice we hand out that could turn out the same way". True, but the vast majority of those can be engineered to be legal and it's not our responsibility to ensure that people do in fact engineer their cars. Cut springs cannot be engineered. They cannot be made legal and therefore Rollaclub or any of its members should not be advising people that it is the right thing to do. I will be asking moderators to respond to any future cut spring threads stating Rollaclubs view on the subject, removing any posts supporting the idea and locking the thread. I really do hate to be the fun police but I think this is in everyone's best interest. i agree you there irokin. Now there is one point i would like to point out to some people, and its is about world renown car designers/builders, who actually cut springs to get the right stance on their creations, while these people know about cutting springs they still do because they want the right look. Now the average joe/jane that sees these things on television and say well its he does it must be the right thing to do and they go copy. Now the one thing most people don't realise is that these cars have the springs replaced once these cars have finished their "show duties" so the owners can actually enjoy the car in a safe manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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