Banjo

Hi Jasper, If there is no severe noise, & it is still slightly driveable, then the centre of the friction/driven plate has not torn out, or something horrific like that. It sounds like the metal diaphram on the pressure plate might have let go. Strange that it happened so swiftly. My suggestion is get it on some ramps or a hoist, & and see what you can see from underneath. Remove spring & clutch cable from the clutch arm, & then remove the rubber boot. Reinstall cable & return spring, & with someone pushing the clutch in & out, someone underneath with a torch can see whether clutch cable & arm & throw-out bearing are all working OK, and there is some resistance when the clutch pedal is pushed right to the floor, and the throw-out bearing presses against the pressure plate fingers. If this checks out OK, then I'm afraid the gearbox, will have to come out, as nothing externally can solve this issue. P.S. Is there any oil leak underneath the gearbox. A rear engine seal going could cover the clutch plate, & make it slip, but It would have to be a lot of oil. Cheers Banjo

Was there any noise associated with it slipping ? Where abouts in Canberra are you, Jasper. I happen to be in Bruce ATM. Cheers Banjo

Early in this thread, I mentioned the Jaycar programmable ignition system, which I have had in my KE30 2 door for a number of years. These modules can be triggered by various means, including points, if you so desire. This kit from Jaycar was released in 2007, so it is 10 years olde. It was one of Silicon Chips most successful kits. I notice Jaycar are selling them out at present. Originally, they sold for nearly $ 100.00. At the moment they are $ 22.92 ea. https://www.jaycar.com.au/programmable-high-energy-ignition-system/p/KC5442 If you want to get into programmable ignition at a basement bargain price, then now is the time. Jaycar are out of stock, for on-line sales, but various Jaycar stores around Australia have them in stock. Just click on the store check, in the link above, & pop in your postcode, to find the nearest store. Most stores in Brisbane have them. I happened to be in Canberra at the moment, & picked up their last two kits at Jaycar's Fyshwick store this morning. The Programmable Ignition System kit comes with comprehensive instructions. Not normally available on-line, but found a website where someone has posted it, if anyone wants to have a read of it's capabilities. http://www.vespalabs.org/@api/deki/files/479/=kc5442_Programmable_High_Energy_Ignition_System.pdf Cheers Banjo

Hi Jeremy, I must comment on your following statement. There is no "constant flow of high current to power the hall effect sensor". That is quiet untrue. The Hall Effect sensor is a low voltage, extremely low current device that senses a magnetic field (usually a north pole) and produces a sharp DC voltage step change, which is used as a trigger signal. The amount of current drawn by this sensor is miniscule. It is true that the reluctance sensor is just a coil, which produces a small AC voltage waveform, when the metalic vane passes it. It has a few problems though, in that the AC waveform output is dependent on speed, so when you are starting the car, & it is cranking over, the output is at its lowest, which is just the time you want the best & highest signal. The Hall Effect device is totally unaffected by the speed of rotation. The reluctance sensor's output being a rough sinewave, is not suitable as a trigger signal, so some processing of this signal has to be carried out, to turn it into a square wave, so it can be effectively used as a trigger signal. However, I agree they are very reliable & were fitted to many cars in the past as a first transistion, by manufactures away from "points" systems. The high current switched by any ignition ignitor, is always a function of the particular coil used, & it's primary resistance. Like any device, there are a range of ignitors, with different max. current carrying capacities. I have ignitors here capable of 4A max, 9A max. 16A max & 19A max. It's simply a case of matching coil & & ignitor to suit. The 4A capacity of the Accuspark, is well capable of handling the coils fitted to many cars, as per their listings, and are ideally suited to our Rollas with standard ignition coils, with or without ballast resistors. Low ohm primary ignition coils are only really required on 6 & 8 cylinder engines, where charging time has to be reduced to allow full charging & full output of the coil at higher revs. Our Rollas are a 4 cylinder car, so there is rarely an issue there or need for a low ohm coil, unless you are red-lining at 8000 rpm regularly ! Cheers Banjo

Hey Wayne, Probably so many over there they use them as boat anchors !

Hi Jeremy, Good point ! Sorry if my wiring diagram above confused anyone. My coil is 1.4 ohms, but is only switched by the Accuspark during starting. As soon as the engine starts, it switches over to the Jaycar programmable controller. The Jaycar fires an external ignitor, of my own making, which can handle currents up to 16 amperes, so handles the 1.4 ohm primary coil OK. The Accuspark has no trouble handling the 1.4 ohm coil current, as it is only for a few seconds, until the engine starts. I did this, because the Jaycar unit seemed to need the engine to turn over a few times, to gets its inputs right, before doing its calculation & outputting a firing pulse . By using the Accuspark to start the engine, it starts instantly every time, just like my wife's late model Corolla. Lots of people comment, how easily & quickly my Rolla starts. Putting excess current through the Accuspark will not kill it instantly. They only fail when subjected to high current for some time, when heat is built up in the module, and the internal electronic fail. The electronic 5K dizzies do the same, if low ohm primary coils are used. They won't instantly fail, but will over time. Cheers Banjo

Hi Graeme, Yes, as Parrot says, contact the guys at RobRoy in Melbourne & tell them you have a 4K with a Bosch dizzy, & they will fix you up. They have done it before. https://www.robroyhistoricgarage.com.au/contact_us.html You won't regret it. Parrot has been looking at the Accuspark Black Box programmable ignition module. Haven't played with it myself, but It has good reports. The Black Box only allows 7 off points to map the curve. The Jaycar has twice that number of points, so is a smoother curve. The advantage of the Accuspark is that you will never ever have to readjust the points again. There is no gap setting. There are two things that upset the old points system on olde dizzies. With new points, perfectly adjusted, in theory you will get excellent results straight away. Fortunately it is all down hill from that point on. It's not just the points. The rubbing block material doesn't seem to be as good as it was years ago. The blocks wear down, the points gap reduces & the timing also changes. The real culprit is the uneven wear on the lobes on the shaft. This has the gap changing constantly & timing jumping around. Altezzaclub has a good trick to show this effect, by putting the timing light pickup on the lead out of the dizzy, rather than no: 1 Spark Plug. If the timing marks indicates it jumping around, there is a good chance you've got a worn shaft and/or worn lobes. Accuspark overcomes all those problems, as there is no contact & the gap movement is non critical. I would recommend if you are going to fit the Accuspark, that it is worth taking out the base plate in the dizzy, & inspecting, cleaning & oiling the bob weights, springs & pivots. If the pivots are very worn, they can catch, & you will never get full advance. Unfortunately, hidden down under the dizzy top plate, they are out of site, & often forgotten, but are so crucial for good performance. Here are a couple of pics showing how clean the Accuspark mod is in the dizzy, and my Jaycar system hidden down on the passengers side. Cheers Banjo

Hi Pete, Yes it is a real no brainer ! Unlike a conventional dizzy, where wear in the shaft, bushes, & cam itself, causes "wobble", and directly effects the points gap, & timing, the Accuspark, and others like it, don't care at all. There is no "contact", just a small air gap between the embedded 4 off magnets on the shaft "slip on", & the single Hall Effect sensor in the module itself. The gap is not even critical, and is typically 1mm. The important thing is it must not touch. The module is just what it says; it is a points replacement module. It has no real "smarts" in it, so it does not provide centifugal advance etc. Vacuum & Centifugal advance is still a function of the distributor itself, so they must be in good condition. I guess that is why some people go for the ebay new aftermarket dizzies, as you get new bob weighs & vacuum unit. However, I always wonder what advance curve they offer. The ones on the net, were for 5Ks, which were used in commercial vehicles, & not really an appropriate curve to get good top end performance when placed in a road car. I should declare, that although I use the Accuspark, I don't use it to charge & switch the coil, as intended. Instead of the coil, I have a 100 ohm resistor tied to +12V, and this produces a lovely square waveform, which I use to trigger the input of a Jaycar programmable ignition system, where you can set the advance curve easily to anything you want or need. My dear olde Denso 3K dizzy (smallest one ever fitted to Rollas) has been gutted, & the bob weights removed & the two ends of the shaft locked together with tie wire & Araldite, so there is no movement at all. Absolutely perfect result, which once I got the curve right, has never been touched since. As Rollas were purposely detuned ignition curve wise, to limit top end, to avoid warranty claims in Toyotas early days into mass production, I estimate I've unleashed another 10 HP out of my 42 year olde Rolla. One day I must put it on a dyno & see. Cheers Banjo

Hi Graeme, Here is where you can get it in Australia. Free Postage, & only $ 75.00. They have come down in price, as I'm sure I paid about $ 96.00 a couple of years ago. This one suits the Denso dizzy. Check, just to make sure your dizzy is not a Bosch one. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Toyota-Corolla-3K-4K-Electronic-Ignition-Conversion-kit-for-Nippon-Denso/162755909396?hash=item25e5021714:g:RHoAAOxycERRlJP2 If your coil has a primary resistance lest than 3.0 ohms, without ballast resistor (highly unlikely) you may have to replace it. Have a read of Accusparks details instructions & considerations. Everything thing is covered including wiring diagrams for every possible wiring scenario you may have on your KE70. Total resistance switched by the Accuspark must be no lower than 3.0 ohm, whether coil by itself, or coil + ballast resistor Coil = 3.0 ohms ) no ballast resistor. Coil = 1.5 ohm = ballast resistor = 1.5 ohm. Total 3.0 ohms. http://www.accuspark.co.uk/fitting_guide.html If you want to go this way, I'm only too happy to call by your place in Buccan & give you a hand. Cheers Banjo

Hi Graeme, Agree with everything Pete has said above. I to am a traditionalist, to some extent, & the simplest, & most effective way to remove the issue of the points, is to use an electronic module, that simply replaces the points. There are various types, like Hot Spark, Pertronix etc. I used an Accuspark, which are available here in Australia (Melbourne) on line. Here is a video of how simple it really is to swap the system over. About 30 mins. if you take your time, & know exactly what you've got to do, before you start. Have a look at this video, & see what you think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lcx_Qr0KyM I'll add a post with a link to where you can get them in Australia & cost etc. There are a few checks you should do before ordering the kit. 1. The dizzy make & model you already have fitted, as Parrot has mentioned above. 2. The coil fitted, as these small "points replacement" modules cannot handle coils with very low primary winding resistances. I've been running one for several years now, & it is faultless. In the old days, I've only had points fail on me once, whilst out on the road, but I always kept a set of points in the glove box, so never got really stuck, like your girl. P.S. The beauty of these systems is, that they use your distributor cap, where under it, is hidden all the components of this system. Someone lifting your bonnet, would never know you have an electronic system fitted. Cheers Banjo

Not too sure about the KE20, but on the KE30 series, the turn indicator flasher relay is in behind the "kick panel" down near the drivers foot. I would imagine the KE20 flasher is in a similar position. Cheers Banjo

Hi Jeremy, You've missed the point about the extra external resistor. It does not reduce the time to saturate the coil as you state. It is out of circuit (s/c ) whilst starting, so the saturation can be reached. It is in circuit, so the coil only sees 9 volts across it, whilst running at alternator volts, because coils that need a ballast resistor, are designed for 9 volts. Cheers. Banjo

OMG ! Graeme; just put a bit of a bend in each end of it, & leave it on there, & you'll get a bit more airflow through that radiator ! P.S. Could also be of assistance when driving through "long grass" out Buccan way. Cheers Banjo

Hi Graeme, Did you eventually get that crankshaft pulley nut off ? Cheers Banjo

Ha ! It has to fit inside a 14" wheel. That was my requirement also, & my combo worked perfectly. Not much clearance though. I remember the first time I had the wheels balanced, they stuck the weights on the inside of the rim, on the flat ... you guessed it, where the caliper was closest. Crunch, & they had to do it again. Off memory, the XT130 mounts were 90mm, & the RA65s were 100mm. I'll see if I can find my olde posts. Here is one of them, back in 2012. https://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/63524-ke-3055-brake-upgrade/ Cheers Banjo

Hi Jeremy, The energy stored by the coil after it reaches saturation, has nothing really to do with amps or volts or resistance. It has everything to do with the inductance of the coil, which is specified in units called Milli Henries. It's the capacity of the coil to hold a charge of a given size. Think of the coil as a bucket of water, which you are filling up constantly & then tipping over someones head, say every minute. The capacity of the bucket is the equivalent of the energy stored. A small bucket fills quickly, but does hold as much water as a bigger bucket. However, the larger bucket takes more than a minute to fill, so you never get to tip the bucket over some ones head, at the required rate. So you need the bigger bucket to store the amount of water needed to wet this person thoroughly. So, how can you get the water into the bucket quicker. Your stuck with water pressure (12 volts) but you could use a bigger diameter hose (lower resistance). The result is greater flow of water, (more amps) That's about the simplest analogy I can think of. The problem here is the time to fill the bucket up. To continue the analogy, when the bucket fills up, & you keep pouring in water, it overflows. The bucket has reached full charge (saturation). http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ignition-coil-tech/ Have a read of the above article. It covers lots of things we have been discussing in every day terms. It might help you understand the subject a little better. So this talk of lower resistance & higher currents is all about getting the max. charge into the coil, in the shortest time. Lower the resistance which ups the amps, both result in the charge reaching saturation earlier. If the charge in the coil in not max. when the spark plug is fired, then the duration of the spark inside the combustion chamber will not be sustained long enough to satisfy complete combustion. Here is another good read, that has some formulae therein for charge of an ignition coil. "L" is the inductance. http://www.instructables.com/id/Ignition-Coil-High-Voltage-Display/ Hope that helps. Cheers Banjo

Hi Rob, I've got RA65 struts on my KE30. They are very similar to the RA40. I'd have to look it up, but I think there might be a small difference in KPI (King Pin Inclination). I scoured the wreckers & found Cresida rotors & calipers fitted the RA65 with very minimal mods required, to get them to attach & centre around the vented disk. The most important path not to travel down, is make sure that the mounting centres for the caliper mounts, match those on the strut. Toyota used 2 off mount dimensions. 90mm & 100mm. Some guys have made adaptors from one to the other, but you are better finding a caliper mount, exactly the same as that on your RA40 strut. My setup works really well, & I've been driving it for years without any issues. Only problem I experienced was the little KE30 original master cylinder dia. was too small to push the larger volume of brake fluid into the big Cresida calipers. I finished up replacing the MC with a Pajero one, which was the easiest mod, you could imagine. I think I documented on here in a post, so I'll look it up, & see what I noted. Cheers Banjo

See my Ohms Law calculation earlier in this post. 4K dizzy with interal ignitor can only handle 9A-10A maximum. Any more, & it will eventually fail, as many 4K users with electronic dizzies will testify. Cheers Banjo

Both your comments are exactly true. The power to the ignitor, from the ignition switch, depicted going directly to the Hot Spark module, or via the 1.4 ohm resistor, (if fitted) powers the ignitor control & triggering electronics only. The "electronic switch" in the ignitor, between coil -ve, ignitor switch, to chassis; only carries the coil primary winding current. The electronic switch is not a perfect switch. It drops a very small voltage across it, so generates heat. It needs to get that heat away, hence why cooling ignitor is important. More current you ask the switch to carry, the hotter it gets. If the ignitor over heats, it will eventually "kill" the ignitor. That simple ! Hence, why they are so adamant about not fitting coils with lower ohms than specified, as that increases current, & therefore heats the "switch" which it has to dissipate. Cheers Banjo

Hi Jeremy, If you are obsessed with high secondary voltage ability, maybe you should get one of theses ! 60,000 Volts. I'm only joking Mate ! Fit one of those & you'd wouldn't have to worry about bumping roads into town. You be there in a few minutes, as you Rolla Jeep would be flying ! I note, they make one with a primary winding resistance of 0.32 ohms. Probably suitable only for Capacitive Discharge Ignition Systems. http://www.pertronix.com.au/flame-thrower_coil_hv.html Cheers Banjo

Hi Jeremy, There are a number of Hall Effect, points replacement modules like the AccuSpark, PerTronix, & the Hot Spark one, you mentioned previously. All do the same thing, basically. http://www.accuspark.co.uk/ https://hot-spark.com/ http://www.pertronix.com.au/ If you go & read the Hot spark website, you will note there are constant warnings thereon, about fitting coils to their system, with less than 3.0 ohms primary winding resistance. That is because the electronic switching device can only handle a max of 4.5A, before thermal considerations come into play. They also advise that the alternator voltage should be 13.7V max. If it is 13.7 or above, they suggest fitting the extra 1.4 ohm resistor, between + Batt & the power feed to the module, to reduce the voltage supply to the module. This resistor has nothing to do with reducing the coil voltage, as the coil primary current, does pass through this resistor at all. If you look at the PerTronix website, you will see that module can handle supply volts up to 16 volts. On the Pertonix website, they suggest 3.0 ohm primary coils, for 4 & 6 cylinder cars, & 1.5 ohm, for 8 cylinder cars, where there is less time to charge the coil between firings, & therefore need greater amps. They also advise that under no circumstances should high performance coils with primary coils resistance < 1.0 be used. I've never used the Pertronix gear, but on paper, the Flame-Thrower coil (wonderful descriptive name) looks like a good product. Produced in 1.5 ohm & 3.0 ohm versions with oil filled & epoxy filled versions. They claim 40,000 Volts HT voltage, which allows you to widen, the spark plug gaps. Interestingly, the Flame-Thrower secondary resistance is 10.6K ohms. They seem reasonably priced on-line. If anyone on Rollaclub has used a Flame-Thrower, I'd love to hear from them. P.S. The only issue with using coils that can produce very high HT voltages, is that your HT components like dizzy cap & rotor, & HT leads to spark plugs must be in very good condition, or you can suffer break down & leakage of HT to ground. On a dark night, lift your bonnet, with the engine running, & see if you can spot any blueish glows around dizzy & the spark plug leads. Cheers Banjo

Hi Jeremy, I didn't suggest that you should reduce your spark plug gap. I was just pointing out that a coil secondary only produces a HV voltage with just enough to jump the gap, and spark, based on the conditions in the cylinder. You could use a coil that has the capacity to produce 30K volts, but that 30K volts would not be achieved unless the gap + cylinder conditions required it. Cheers Banjo. P.S. In your case without something to test the coils ability to produce & sustain a spark, the only way you are going to fix your issue, is by substitution with a known good coil. As I said previously; coils do fail, for a number of well documented reasons.

Hi Jeremy, Let me explain it another way. The primary & secondary resistances have really nothing to do with whether a spark generated by that coil is weak or strong. Yes coils can break down, but I'm not talking about used ignition coils; I'm referring to new coils. The coil with a primary resistance of 3.0 ohms can deliver the exact same energy as a coil with 1.5 ohms. It just takes longer for the coil to charge up. Yes, if you have a V8 doing 10,000 rpm, you have very little time between firings, to charge up the coil for the next firing, so may need a low primary ohm coil to make it charge quicker. We are talking here about a 4K engine with half as many cylinders, and half that sort of revs. It has plenty of time to charge up a coil with a 3.0 ohm primary. GT40, no ballast resistor… 14V / 3.4 ohms = 4.1 ampsGT40R 1.4 ohm with 1.6 ohm ballast resistor… 14V / 3 ohms = 4.6 amps As far as the secondary resistance goes, the voltage developed by the coil, is only as much as needed to jump across the spark plug gap. It you close the gap right up, a spark can jump it with probably 2-5K volts. In a working engine, under pressure more volts are needed to jump the gap, but any coil capable of around 20K volts will suffice for our humble Rollas. It's only extreme performance cars that may need potential voltages like 30K - 40K volts to fire a spark. I have a little spark gap here on the bench, you can buy on ebay for less than $ 5.00, that allows you to increase the gap until it won't spark. The rough scale on the side tells you what the voltage is to jump that gap. At 30K volts the gap is 20mm wide ! The indications of a good strong coil, is one that produces a spark that is bright blue/purple & white in colour. A weak coil, is one that produces a very yellowy spark colour. Yes, there are weak coils. One of the big dangers with coils is operating them without a spark gap, which can lead to breakdown inside on the secondary winding, which has a lot of turns of fairly fine wire. Don't forget there other things in the secondary of the ignition coil that can create weak sparks. The main culprit is bad HV dizzy leads. P.S. As a rule of thumb, a good coil should produce a clean sharp bright purple spark with an average dwell time (charging time) of about 3 milliseconds. If you are getting a weak spark, I'd be looking at other things in your system, than just the coils specs. Cheers Banjo

Hi Jeremy, I understand your frustration. Everything you read on the internet is not always "gospel" ! The term HEI (High Energy Ignition) is loosely used. I think it just "Sounds Good" to some people ! There is two (2) specifications regarding the primary of any given ignition coil, when you are charging it with an electronic ignitor, rather than the traditional points. One is is its primary resistance which purely determines the maximum number of amperes DC that can flow into the coil during the charging process. As I stated before, you can work out this "amps" figure by using Ohms Law calculation, as long as you know what the DC resistance is of the primary winding of the coil you have. Measuring this with a cheap multimeter is pretty hard & suspect, but a good quality multimeter should be able to read resistances down that low. You could just feed 12 volts to the coil., for a short time, & measure the DC amperes, using the DC current range on a multimeter, but most of the low to medium priced multimeters, only have max. 10A DC current ranges. Any ignition coil with a primary resistance lower than about 1.2 ohms, will draw more than 10A DC current, whilst charging. The second spec. you see for ignition coil primaries, is the "Inductance, usually specified in mH (Milli Henries). This inductance figure determines how long it takes to charge the coil up, before you can trigger it, to collapse & create a spark in the secondary circuit. The resistor in series with the primary winding of the ignition coil has an history story behind it. Yes it does reduce the current switched by the points in older dizzies. However, that is not the true reason for its introduction. The original ignition coils were designed for use at 12+ volts, which is what most coils run at, when the car is driving. However, in colder climatic parts of the world where great strain is put on batteries, during cold starts on a wintry morning, the battery volts would drop to say 9V, under starter motor high cranking current load. Just at the time when you want the car to start, the ignition coil is only fed with 9 volts, & hence provides its lowest output. I believe the first Rollas were provided with 12 volt coils like that. So some bright spark, decided to design & manufacture the coil to operate with full output at just 9 volts. Cars then starts, but when driving, the coil is subjected to 12+ volts & overheats. Solution; put a resistor is series with the 9V coil, such that it drops 3 volts across the resistor, when the car is driving, & everyone is happy. The resistor is short circuited whist turning over the starter motor, but is placed in circiuit, as soon as the car starts. 100s of thousands of cars were designed that way thereafter. Problem is there are lots of ignition coils around that have no markings on them, so you don't know whether they designed for 9V or 12 volt. Simply, a 9V coil requires an external resistor, whist a 12V coil doesn't. The popular GT40 coil, which many Rolla members use, is clearly marked. There is a model GT12, (12 volt) & a model GT12R (9V) which requires a resistor. This is clearly stamped on the coil body. However, many use the GT12R with the lower resistance, or other 9V coils, with electronic ignitors able to handle the extra current drawn by the lower resistance coil. This is fine, if you are using a "smart" ignitor, that is sensing the drawn current, & switches it off, as soon as the coil is saturated (fully charged), but not good, if you have a dumb ignitor. Those playing around with programmable ignition ECUs, often get into trouble when setting dwell periods too long. The dwell period, should never be set any longer that the time it takes for the coil to be charged. Lots of ignitors die an early death as result of not understanding the implications of matching the coil characteristics to the ignitors maximum design criteria & specs. I have been building my own ignitors for some time, using the original Bosch chip, (BIP373). These you can buy from Megasquirt (DIY AutoTune) for around $ 10.00. I've never lost one yet. They have thermal shutdown if they get too hot, & are almost indestructible. They can be driven from a 5V signal, & all you need to do, is mount them on a good heatsink. So there is a lttle bit more to putting coils & ignitors together than meets the eye, but with a bit of care, you can obtain all the advantages of precise electronic triggering & ignition, & still have the reliability. Cheers Banjo

Hi Graeme, Always harder when the engine is the car. When it is out of the car, you can always jam or lock the flywheel. I swift hit with a mallet has always worked for me, but it needs support of the extension shaft with the socket on it, at the opposite end to the socket. The starter motor option, does apparently work, as there are several utube vids showing this. Haven't tried it myself. Certainly would not be risking Jeremy's second suggestion jamming pistons 2 & 3. Worst case, you might have to remove the radiator, to give yourself some more room. Cheers Banjo