white_sandshoe Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 The down side of this scheme for me, is seeing the government throw away $400,000,000 of our tax dollars that could have been better spent elsewhere. Imagine what $400,000,000 would do for Ethanol conversions on those same clunkers? Emissions reduction is the aim right? Surely the reduction in CO from converting cars over to Ethanol would be far superior to getting people into newer cars that still produce CO, not only from their manufacture, but also because they are STILL using fossil fuels? It's just a sideways step by the government, in a very clever 'we ARE moving on the climate change issue... sure, not forwards, but at least we're moving...' sort of way that most people won't recognise and, I don't doubt, will get them the votes they're after. How about taking a few forwards steps instead? Perhaps offer a rebate for ethanol conversion to vehicles, along with support, or even some healthy pressure, to service stations to convert a portion of their bowsers to pumping E85 or the like. (there are better mixes of Ethanol based fuels than E85 that are cheaper and easier to produce.) Essentially for Ethanol conversion, (for anyone who hasn't looked into it.) it is essentially changing over rubber lines and seals in the fuel system to items that the Ethanol won't degrade... To get the most of running Ethanol, you can include a head skim to bump compression up, and really make the most of the burn properties. Estimates come in around the $1000 mark for a decent, workshop performed Ethanol conversion. And if it's a rebate, not a hand out, then that can possibly quadruple the number of cars who's emissions will be reduced. That goes from 200,000 to possibly 800,000 cars who will be performing better, with less harmful emissions. Perhaps even if they only aim at 400,000 cars, then put the other half of the money into industrialising Enzyme research from the past 5 years. Laboratories have been producing Ethanol for Biofuel use from human and animal waste for some time, using high yield yeasts and metabolic enzymes that work hand in hand to break down and ferment starches in everything from bodily waste to recycled cardboard, paper products and the like. How fantastic would it be for Sewage management facilities, which are currently being run on rates and taxes, to be converted to Ethanol production facilities, and run on their own profits? Same applys for Rubbish dumps! Reduced landfill, better sewage management and cheaper, cleaner fuels... all in one sweet package. Damn, I should go into politics. If Gillard can get voted in on her cash for clunkers 'green' vote, I'll be President of the United States of Australia in no time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ke70dave Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 nice post sandshoe, Problem is, the politicians prolly don't know what ethanol is let alone what is involved in converting a car to accept it. "taking old cars off the road" is easy, very easy. and like you say, makes it look like they are doing things. when in fact they arent, they are meerly offering to give back a miniscule percentage of the rediculous tax money that is collected. i think one of the main problems is that politicians are only looking 3yrs in advance, do just enough work to ensure that they are voted in the next election. so funny/frustrating to see the ramp up of road works close to an election, who are they trying to fool? id like to see a political party, come up with a proper say 50 yr plan, infrastructure, water, sewerage, cars, whatever, but of course why would they? when the next election is only 3yrs away. Funnily enough we were just talking about this stupid cash for clunkers scheme in the lunch room, had a good laugh thats for sure. though my mate was pretty happy as his old falcon is not even worth $2000, but he'd happily take $2k for it. oh yeah i tried ethanol fuel in the 4age once, by mistake, damn thing did not like it one bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parrot Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 White Sandshoe for PM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7shades Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Hopeless, pathetic, shortsighted and counterproductive grab at left leaning voters. Thankfully, it won't work. Leftists/Environmentalists/rational intelligent humans with even the vaguest grasp of the 'bigger picture' already know where their primary vote is being cast, and it's not towards the party/parties trundling out some token quasi-environmental policy in a vain attempt to lure back disenchanted Green voters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_sandshoe Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 oh yeah i tried ethanol fuel in the 4age once, by mistake, damn thing did not like it one bit. I'm really curious to put a built engine next to a stock engine and see what the difference is in power figures. They've been using ethanol in racing forever. My uncles old sprint car made 350 all day every day from a chev half-a-V8... the little pushrod 4 cyls the class dictates they run. horrid dinosaur engine, and he's making 350rwhp. Imagine a Silvertop that's been set up properly to run E85... I'd hazard a guess at a reliable 200hp with a basic conversion. (more compression, matched injectors and silicon seals...) Either way, I agree with philbey... I'm scared to see some choice old cars, not just rollas, going to the crushers. After seeing my mate's mother sell his XY GT, with matching numbers, for $200 while he was travelling... There are heaps of people that just don't know what older cars are worth, and will happily scrap their rare or collectable gem for $2000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67Rolla-Ken Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Great read. I wouldn't part with any of my cars for $2000. I have a 20V 4AGE for my KE20 that I don't have a fixed plan for Garnett, would that be a candidate for the Ethanol conversion?? If I did convert would this make it easier to pass an emissions test? Would this then produce less emissions than the 3k that came out of my KE20? I bet I would have trouble finding a servo if I did get this done.. :jamie: I don't know much about ethanol, would love to know more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_sandshoe Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Haha, funny Ken... I'm actually looking at my options to build a Ethanol slurping 1UZ with an Eaton supercharger... why skim heads or fit aftermarket pistons to raise compression when adding boost is soooo much easier? hehe. Emissions tests measure a wide range of different gasses... While it would still read similar amounts of CO2, you'd find massively less CO (carbon monoxide) and other harmful gasses, particularly the sulfurous ones. http://www.energy.gov/media/BiofuelsMythVFact.pdf It's an American Government study, but has some interesting figures... The waste produced Ethanol I mentioned is referred to as Cellulosic Biomass Ethanol... including greenhouse gasses produced during manufacture, as well as exhaust gasses produced from using it, it's still a 86% reduction in greenhouse gasses over standard petrol. Now there's two ways we can look at it... Either use that 86% as a buffer for more performance work (I know some guys who would LOVE to legally use side draught webers on a 4AGE and not fail emissions tests) or, take it on board as a government regulated reduction in emissions standards across the board. Imagine if the Australian Government turned around and said "over the next 10 years, we will be reducing the allowable exhaust emissions for standard, daily driven cars, to 65% of it's current level." (I have to leave a precident for performance cars and classics to still be legal. Otherwise i'd have to get rid of half of my own!) Suddenly, manufacturers will have to equip cars with ethanol capability and tuning from the factory, all petrol stations will have to supply ethanol based fuels to keep up with demand, and industry will need to be established at a high rate to set up infrastructure to handle production and delivery of such quantities. The chemical engineers can easily transfer to this new and exciting field, the rig, line and distilate workers can re-skill and continue in the fuel supply industry, construction workers around the country will have a multitude of work on production facilities and the general infrastructure for companies taking advantage of the government induced opportunity. Even the truckies who currently deliver petrol will be employed to deliver higher quantaties of ethanol, as demand increases. The way I see it, the only people that would be losing out would be petrolium company executives... What a way to boost the economy again? Wow, Imagine the government making such a positive step to secure Australias future! And that's not even mentioning the export market... I'd love to walk into a dealership and test drive a performance toyota (FT-86 if it ever gets released) running 16:1 compression, making 200hp from a NA 1.5L... (3SZ-VE for those not aware that toyota may ditch the boxer engine. I guess they'll need to do a revised, ethanol version... 4SZ? or even better... 4SGE.) mmm. the way of the future could be incredibly sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammo[RL] Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Hopeless, pathetic, shortsighted and counterproductive grab at left leaning voters. Thankfully, it won't work. Leftists/Environmentalists/rational intelligent humans with even the vaguest grasp of the 'bigger picture' already know where their primary vote is being cast, and it's not towards the party/parties trundling out some token quasi-environmental policy in a vain attempt to lure back disenchanted Green voters. 100% Correct! Couldn't agree more. Won't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 From my experience: With E10 in a 4age you have to pull about 5 degrees of timing out of it an the car is still very reliable (Mrs put e10 in one day). With Shell v-racing power (now N/A) the 4age ran great. Would love to see one running with E85. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingheads Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Even though ethanol is a far more environmentally friendly fuel than petrol, the amount of land that is needed to produce ethanol means that there is only so much that can be produced before it becomes either economically or environmentally unviable. If we use significant amounts of farming land worldwide, which was previously used for food production, less food will be produced, which will make it more expensive. Clearing forest to produce ethanol is obviously environmentally unfriendly, like in Brazil. Also the amount of energy that is used to produce ethanol makes it less efficient overall than just looking at how it burns. Ethanol also generates more than twice as much ozone as petrol, which creates a different kind of pollution. I don't think cash for clunkers or ethanol are the answer. I'd push people towards smaller, more fuel efficient cars and diesels, Europe style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altezzaclub Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 I'd push towards getting the Govt out of the transport industry altogether and letting private industry come up with the most efficient answers! Govt subsidies are always a dead end, they waste the potential of better ideas and the wealth of the subjects paying taxes. If ethanol can't compete on an even playing field now, then it is not the fuel for today. In 10years time when demand for oil exceeds supply then petrol will be 5 or 10 or 20dollars a litre and maybe ethanol will be attractive then. But it won't work with Govts picking winners- they didn't invent the car or the roads or petrol, it was all done privately, all Govts did was slow development by adding regulations in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corollaart Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Ive just have no faith in this goverment to get it right ( thinking of schools building program). :jamie: People who drive 2000 dollar shit boxs ,usually can't afford a new car. rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towe001 Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 "Cash for clunkers" pft what a joke. Sure my '30 might have a market value under 2 grand but how the hell am i going to afford the repayments on a new car along with the cost of rego, maintenance, insurance, fuel. I'm keeping my third love.... I'd push people towards smaller, more fuel efficient cars and diesels, Europe style. Sorry to say it but for me and my family of "wife" and two kids, it won't work - we're thinking of a bigger car. You try fitting four people (at the moment five - three adults and two kids), a minimum of $150 of grocery's and a days shopping of other crap into a car smaller then the lancer. I need a bigger car damn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinspinna Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 mine can't pollute the world when its always in hibernation in the shed...... :jamie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7shades Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 "Cash for clunkers" pft what a joke.Sure my '30 might have a market value under 2 grand but how the hell am i going to afford the repayments on a new car along with the cost of rego, maintenance, insurance, fuel. I'm keeping my third love.... Sorry to say it but for me and my family of "wife" and two kids, it won't work - we're thinking of a bigger car. You try fitting four people (at the moment five - three adults and two kids), a minimum of $150 of grocery's and a days shopping of other crap into a car smaller then the lancer. I need a bigger car damn it. Get thee to a wagon! I like the new Skodas... I had a Skoda Octavia Estate not long ago as a rental and was seriously impressed. The Audis and VWs might be slightly better, but not worth the extra millions of bucks if you're just chasing an economical family car. Everyone needs a wagon :jamie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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